My WR450F tight woods "racer" build.



168 replies to this topic
  • KennyMc

Posted July 31, 2014 - 08:50 PM

#41

Info for the Hotcam's made for the 2003 - 2011 WR to give it the YZ timing while maintaining the use of the e-start.

 

Intake - 8.86, duration 269

Exhaust - 8.67, duration 265



  • SoCalDirtRider67

Posted August 18, 2014 - 11:12 PM

#42

This post started out interesting and informative so I hope to get a little help here for my 2012 wr450f. I recently attempted to install Race Tech gold valves in my forks. The instructions are very vague and I had to call RT. I got confused on the first step of reassembling. It says to "place the original base plate(s) (thick washer) on the shaft. But there are shims below this base plate that I removed and got out of order. I assumed that they went from small to large to base washer and then RT valving begins. It's kind of strange that they do not give you a shim order from below the base plate. Anyway, I installed everything and what a pain it was to install the cartridge and bleed it! Even after watching several videos. Does anyone have any tips on this? So, I got everything back together and went on a ride. I didn't notice much of a difference. When i stopped for a rest, i pushed the air bleeder and it had built up a lot of air. Is this normal? And even some oil came through the bleeders. I'm starting to wonder if i messed something up because i expected a much better ride than what i got. Thanks for any help. BTW, I love this bike! I just want it to handle like a wet dream.



  • stevethe

Posted August 19, 2014 - 05:19 AM

#43

I think the air bleed is normal. The 12' has good forks with shim stacks. However almost any bike can be made better when you dial in the suspension for your weight and riding style. What did you punch in for riding and did you opt for soft. Only real racers should get stiff racing suspension that works when going at racing speeds. When I did my Racetech stuff they clearly gave you a count of shims based on diameter and thickness. However mine were not SSS forks.

 

Oh and a wet dream, not sure that's a good one!  or is it!  maybe depends on if your wearing depends or not!



  • RockerYZWR

Posted August 19, 2014 - 05:32 AM

#44

This post started out interesting and informative so I hope to get a little help here for my 2012 wr450f. I recently attempted to install Race Tech gold valves in my forks. The instructions are very vague and I had to call RT. I got confused on the first step of reassembling. It says to "place the original base plate(s) (thick washer) on the shaft. But there are shims below this base plate that I removed and got out of order. I assumed that they went from small to large to base washer and then RT valving begins. It's kind of strange that they do not give you a shim order from below the base plate. Anyway, I installed everything and what a pain it was to install the cartridge and bleed it! Even after watching several videos. Does anyone have any tips on this? So, I got everything back together and went on a ride. I didn't notice much of a difference. When i stopped for a rest, i pushed the air bleeder and it had built up a lot of air. Is this normal? And even some oil came through the bleeders. I'm starting to wonder if i messed something up because i expected a much better ride than what i got. Thanks for any help. BTW, I love this bike! I just want it to handle like a wet dream.

Make sure when you hit the air bleeders that the front wheel is off the ground or has no load at all. You can use the kickstand and pull the front end up if you don't have a stand available. Otherwise, if you hit them with the forks compressed at all, it'll create and hold a vacuum and handle like garbage.

  • MidlifeCrisisGuy

Posted August 19, 2014 - 06:10 AM

#45

Make sure when you hit the air bleeders that the front wheel is off the ground or has no load at all. You can use the kickstand and pull the front end up if you don't have a stand available. Otherwise, if you hit them with the forks compressed at all, it'll create and hold a vacuum and handle like garbage.

 

Not with close cartridge forks.  All a small vacuum (when fully extended) would do is act against the spring a bit, which is no big deal. 



  • MidlifeCrisisGuy

Posted August 19, 2014 - 06:33 AM

#46

This post started out interesting and informative so I hope to get a little help here for my 2012 wr450f. I recently attempted to install Race Tech gold valves in my forks. The instructions are very vague and I had to call RT. I got confused on the first step of reassembling. It says to "place the original base plate(s) (thick washer) on the shaft. But there are shims below this base plate that I removed and got out of order. I assumed that they went from small to large to base washer and then RT valving begins. It's kind of strange that they do not give you a shim order from below the base plate. Anyway, I installed everything and what a pain it was to install the cartridge and bleed it! Even after watching several videos. Does anyone have any tips on this? So, I got everything back together and went on a ride. I didn't notice much of a difference. When i stopped for a rest, i pushed the air bleeder and it had built up a lot of air. Is this normal? And even some oil came through the bleeders. I'm starting to wonder if i messed something up because i expected a much better ride than what i got. Thanks for any help. BTW, I love this bike! I just want it to handle like a wet dream.

 

I'm about to pull my forks apart and revalve them.  I'll post the shim stack and you can reassemble yours in the proper order.

 

I'm not sure that these forks need Gold Valves.    Gold valves are useful when tuning non cartridge forks and when the piston area in a fork doesn't allow for enough flow to handle high speed impacts.   The 2012 WR450F has twin chamber cartridge forks (SSS to be exact) and I suspect the piston area is fine, but I'll check it when I pull mine apart.   FYI, the forks on these bikes are identical part number wise to 2010-2012 YZ250F forks with the exception of the tube and a few other parts being shorter.

 

I can't speak to what Gold Valves should or shouldn't do, but if the valve area was adequate in the stock forks the valves themselves aren't going to add much.   Furthermore, there has been more than one instance of people paying for revalving jobs only to find that the stock stack was left pretty much stock.

 

There are several threads in the suspension forum dealing with tuning SSS forks for woods riding.

 

http://www.thumperta...stack-proposal/

http://www.thumperta...yb-sss-revalve/

http://www.thumperta...ms-springs-etc/

http://www.thumperta...ed-stock-stack/

http://www.thumperta...0f-shim-stacks/

 

I'll be modelling my valving changes in Restackor.

 

The first step to making the WR450F handle is to get the springs right and set the race sag.  After that its time to work on valving. 

 

Rear spring rates and sag settings make a big difference in how the bike handles, especially in tight,technical conditions.  If the back end is soft or set low, it "choppers out" and steers terrible.  This makes the bike feel slow and heavy, as it ponders through turns.   Once you get the suspension and steering working, it carves through turns and feels much lighter.   Generally the faster the WR450F is ridden the lighter it feels.

 

Adjusting clickers makes a big difference too.  Stock, my bike used to jar my wrists and bounce me off the seat going over roots and rocks.  Now it pretty much floats, though I have issues with bottoming.

 

I recently rerode a trail that I last rode last summer when I first got the bike.  Sections that had me bouncing around, slowed down to a crawl in first gear, I realized that I'm now taking at mid throttle in 2nd.  Now that I have things sorted oout, it holds lines better and allows me to pick and choose where I want to put the front tire.  It also hooks up better and climbs better.

 

I've got a few more mods planned for my WR450F tight woods "racer".  Its pretty good the way it is now, but I suspect I can make it outstanding.  The WR450F has a TON of potential to those with an open mind who want to tinker.  Stay tuned.


Edited by MidlifeCrisisGuy, August 19, 2014 - 06:45 AM.


  • MidlifeCrisisGuy

Posted August 19, 2014 - 08:06 AM

#47

I posted an inferred 2012 WR450F stack in this thread.   There is also a link to the thread I got the numbers from.

http://www.thumperta...-revalve/page-2



  • SoCalDirtRider67

Posted August 19, 2014 - 08:49 AM

#48

Thanks for all valuable info. I was pushing the bleeders while sitting on the bike and even did it once when i was moving. This would probably explain all the oil coming out of the bleeders and the poor handling. I have pics of my gold valves installed i will post.

That would be awesome if you would post the stock shim stack.

BTW, i did get new springs front and rear and gold valves front and rear. Haven't had a chance to install the rear yet.



  • RockerYZWR

Posted August 19, 2014 - 09:41 AM

#49

Not with close cartridge forks. All a small vacuum (when fully extended) would do is act against the spring a bit, which is no big deal.

It's no big deal on the sense that it won't damage anything, but your forks won't work as designed. When you create a vacuum (or incur one with a temperature or altitude change), three less than desirable conditions occur.

1) The airspring effect in the outer chamber, which is a critical part of bottoming resistance and the overall feel of the fork (especially the initial and mid portions of the stroke) will be way off.

2) You'll run much lower in the stroke, lose inches of initial damping, and get very harsh damping for the remainder of the stroke.

3) If everything else is sealed properly, you can potentially foul up your fork seals if you're running in mud, deep sand, or other nasty conditions because potential exists to suck dirt in through the seals.

Give both methods a try sometime - you'll notice a big difference in the action of the forks. Or if you've already dropped your forks for the revalve, try pushing down on one on the garage floor, once with no vacuum, and once with. It's pretty easy to notice the lost initial stroke and harsh midstroke just by doing that.

  • SoCalDirtRider67

Posted August 19, 2014 - 09:58 AM

#50

Here is a diagram that comes with the gold valve installation instructions. But, they do not show the shim stack bellow the base plate.

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Edited by SoCalDirtRider67, August 19, 2014 - 10:04 AM.


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  • MidlifeCrisisGuy

Posted August 19, 2014 - 10:58 AM

#51

I'm surprised that Racetech couldn't help you out by providing the list for the stock shim stack.


Do you have your stock pistons out ?   Could you photograph and measure them ?



  • MidlifeCrisisGuy

Posted August 19, 2014 - 11:03 AM

#52

2) You'll run much lower in the stroke, lose inches of initial damping, and get very harsh damping for the remainder of the stroke.
 

 

I'm not trying to be a smart a$$ about this and I believe that bleeding the air out is best done with the front wheel raised, but it isn't going to make a huge difference if its not.

 

As far as item #2 above goes, the 2012+ WR450Fs run twin chamber SSS forks.   The damping function is completely contained within the damper cartridge which is totally separate and self contained from the air/oil/spring chamber where the air is bled from.  So bleeding the air from the forks "incorrectly" makes no difference to the damping aspect of the fork at all.

 

I agree it makes a difference in the air spring component of the fork.

 

I'll test this and put some numbers to it before I pull my forks off.


Edited by MidlifeCrisisGuy, August 19, 2014 - 11:07 AM.


  • Krannie McKranface

Posted August 19, 2014 - 12:31 PM

#53

I'm not trying to be a smart a$$ about this and I believe that bleeding the air out is best done with the front wheel raised, but it isn't going to make a huge difference if its not.

 

As far as item #2 above goes, the 2012+ WR450Fs run twin chamber SSS forks.   The damping function is completely contained within the damper cartridge which is totally separate and self contained from the air/oil/spring chamber where the air is bled from.  So bleeding the air from the forks "incorrectly" makes no difference to the damping aspect of the fork at all.

 

I agree it makes a difference in the air spring component of the fork.

 

I'll test this and put some numbers to it before I pull my forks off.

 

Well, if you do not completely bleed the inner chamber, you will restrict travel and eventually blow the inner chamber o-ring out.



  • SoCalDirtRider67

Posted August 19, 2014 - 12:39 PM

#54

I called Race Tech today and they were very helpful. Turns out I had the lower shim stack in correct order. But am still a little confused with the sleeve washer. The RT tech suggested that i don't use the sleeve that came with the kit and use the stock sleeve and cupped washer. He also that it was normal to have a little oil come out of the bleeder and that i should always relieve the air with the front end suspended. I knew this from when i use to ride years ago but had a brain fart and forgot about it. Here are some pics. Does the top of this look right to you guys?

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Edited by SoCalDirtRider67, August 19, 2014 - 12:48 PM.


  • SoCalDirtRider67

Posted August 19, 2014 - 01:21 PM

#55

Stock 2012 wr450f valve vs Race Tech Gold valve

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  • SoCalDirtRider67

Posted August 19, 2014 - 01:25 PM

#56

Here is a comparison of stock sleeve and cupped washer vs Race Tech sleeve.

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  • MidlifeCrisisGuy

Posted August 19, 2014 - 01:36 PM

#57

Does the top of this look right to you guys?

 

I'd ask this question in the suspension forum.

 

Those are the G2R valves ?

 

So in what way doesn't your bike handle well/better ?   What was your complaint before you did the suspension upgrade ?

 

I'm happy you asked these questions because I'm learning something.   Anyone know if the YZ has that cup in the stack ?   I don't think so.


Edited by MidlifeCrisisGuy, August 19, 2014 - 01:40 PM.


  • SoCalDirtRider67

Posted August 19, 2014 - 02:06 PM

#58

I'd ask this question in the suspension forum.

 

Those are the G2R valves ?

 

So in what way doesn't your bike handle well/better ?   What was your complaint before you did the suspension upgrade ?

 

I'm happy you asked these questions because I'm learning something.   Anyone know if the YZ has that cup in the stack ?   I don't think so.

I figure that i would ask questions here beacause all the guys in this post seem to know a lot about wr450s. BTW, sorry that i hijacked your post but you seemed to have knowledge of these bikes. Also, what is the footpeg mod you did? I', 6'2 and need all the room i can get! Thanks

 

Yes, they are G2-R valves.

 

The main reason i decided to revalve was because i didn't like the square edge feeling with the stock valving. It was pretty bad at slow speeds and i messed with the clickers a bit and could never get ride of the harshness. I rode my buddies 08 wr with gold valves and loved it. So i am hopeing to get a smoother overall feel from my suspension.



  • MidlifeCrisisGuy

Posted August 19, 2014 - 02:36 PM

#59

Don't apologize, this is a good discussion !

 

As far as the footpegs, I'm 6'1".   What I did was ditched the kickstand and its mount and replaced the left mount with a YZ mount.  I think any from about 08 and on work.  That got me standard footpeg mounting.

 

What I did then was grind the pegs off the back of the mounts and remount them on the opposite side, upside down.   This drops the pegs down, making them more prone to drag and also moves them forward.

 

There is a lot of debate about moving peg locations.  The idea is to keep the riders COG in the same place.  If you move the pegs back, the rider also moves back, especially when standing.  This contributes to the chopper effect, poor steering and the whole, man this bike is a heavy beat feeling.  If you move the pegs forward (and down) it allows a taller person to sit with their knees closer to level and retains their center of gravity about where it was stock.

 

Swapping the peg mounts side to side cants the pegs slightly forward.  It looks a bit odd, but it works well.

 

It took me a long time to come up with this footpeg solution.  My friend has rearset pegs on his bike.  I think it creates a weird balance problem.

 

FWIW, the stock WR footpegs are oversized and made of stainless steel.  YZ footpegs (08+ ?) are smaller width wise and made of titanium.  You can save half a pound by using the YZ footpegs versus the WR footpegs.   And it opens up a bit more room between the pegs and the brake and shifter, though I have no problems in this regard, even with size 13 riding boots.  

 

If you are tall and you keep your CG in the same place and you have long arms, the bars need to go forward.  I haven't cracked that issue yet, though I am working on it.  Stay tuned.



  • MidlifeCrisisGuy

Posted August 19, 2014 - 02:43 PM

#60

The main reason i decided to revalve was because i didn't like the square edge feeling with the stock valving. It was pretty bad at slow speeds and i messed with the clickers a bit and could never get ride of the harshness. I rode my buddies 08 wr with gold valves and loved it. So i am hopeing to get a smoother overall feel from my suspension.

 

I had the same problem.   Respringing the forks with 0.5kg/mm and about 310ccs of oil helped.  Keep backing off the compression clicker.  Try backing off the rebound as much as you can as well.  Have you aligned your front axle properly ?  Are you over tightening your triple clamp ?

 

With the respring and clickers backed off, my bike is fairly plush on rough ground.  No more sore wrists.   8 PSI or less in the front tire (IRC VE330 Vulcanenduro) helps too.  FWIW, my suspension is WAY better than some of the other stock suspensions out there, even from the so called enduro bikes from the specialized manufacturers.  However, lighter bikes are more tolerant of bad suspension handling wise.

 

I hope to revalve my forks this week, but I'm still in information collection/learning mode.


Edited by MidlifeCrisisGuy, August 19, 2014 - 02:47 PM.





 
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