Overheating 2012 WR450, need help

Chemical Coolant Engine Radiators & Components

65 replies to this topic
  • hawaiidirtrider

Posted June 27, 2014 - 10:41 PM

#21

On a WR you boil over into a catch bottle. As it cools it sucks the coolant back in. So you don't lose much at all. Evans does not boil over but it also does not transfer the heat as well. So you run hotter and never know it.

 

The simplest way would probably be to run evans. ..but I don't think that's the best. I rather the level of heat be dealt with..but it costs a lot more  and lots may not want to go the route of.. bigger radiators, bigger impellar waterpump, overflow bottle, large volume coolant head, inline aluminum radiator hose coolers, higher pressure radiator cap and a variety of water wetters or special expensive coolants, and of course radiator fan.. There's also two2cool oil coolant additive too for that matter.  ..and of course jetting .  ..but maybe one could choose some of those mods and that would be enough.. say a rad fan and an overflow bottle..to start and then if it doesn't work well enough keep adding mods till it does.



  • motopsycho2

Posted June 28, 2014 - 03:58 AM

#22

Yes, when coolant is in the catch bottle it is not in the radiator. I would rather have mine in the radiator. Look inside of a boilling kettle (carefully) when you nex make coffee, you will see large bubbles at the hot spots. Imagine that to be in your engine in a very narrow coolant jacket. These bubbles actually become an insulation preventing cooler liquids reaching the hot surfaces.
Most mechanical water pump (dirt bikes) will not have a temperature gauge to tell your temperature but as long as your engine is running you can trust that coolant is flowing. In a car or truck that is belt driven or electrical water pump they will always come with a temp gauge such that the pump should fail the driver will know.

  • MidlifeCrisisGuy

Posted June 28, 2014 - 09:02 AM

#23

Hey guys, I have been snooping around this forum gaining valuable knowledge but never really contributed so I should do my part. I run my 98 wr400 with this product call Evans powersports. Event when my radiators are covered in mud it doesn't boil over! Basically the Evans guys took the water component out of the antifreeze thus eliminating boiling. As we all know water boils at 100degrees thus when there is no water the boiling temp become 180degrees. This coolant will continue to do its job when water turns into vapor. I have been using it and will not use anything else. Do a search online I am sure they sell online.

 

So here is the thing about the the Evans product and others like it.

 

1) They have elevated boiling points.   Some as high at 350F.  This means most bikes will never boil over with these coolants.  They will probably seize first.

 

2) The best heat transfer liquid is pure water.   The less water you have in the system the hotter the cylinder wall has to be to transfer heat to the liquid.  Because these super coolants have no water in them, their heat transfer ability is greatly reduced from a water based coolant.

 

3) When these "super coolants" don't boil and the bike is hot, you have no idea how hot the bike actually is.  If the product has a boiling point (at 1.1 bar) of 350F, the coolant may be running 349F and you'd never know it !   And because they aren't as good at transferring heat as water based coolants, the cylinder wall is going to be even hotter than that.  In my book its a recipe for putting extreme heat stress on the engine.

 

4) Because the super coolants have inferior heat transfer, it reduces the cooling capacity of the radiators from what they might do with a water based coolant.  Thus the over all cooling capacity of the system is reduced, just when you want it to be as effective as it can be.

 

I prefer water at a higher pressure over using a super coolant for the following reasons.

 

1) It keeps the cylinder wall temp as close as possible to the coolant temp.

 

2) The system lets me know if dangerous temperatures have been reached, ie boil over signs will start at 280F or so.

 

3) It doesn't decrease the cooling capacity of the radiators.

 

4) If I do experience a boil over, I can top up the system with water in an emergency.  Some super coolants are required to be 100% water free.



  • stevethe

Posted June 28, 2014 - 10:34 AM

#24

So here is the thing about the the Evans product and others like it.

 

1) They have elevated boiling points.   Some as high at 350F.  This means most bikes will never boil over with these coolants.  They will probably seize first.

 

2) The best heat transfer liquid is pure water.   The less water you have in the system the hotter the cylinder wall has to be to transfer heat to the liquid.  Because these super coolants have no water in them, their heat transfer ability is greatly reduced from a water based coolant.

 

3) When these "super coolants" don't boil and the bike is hot, you have no idea how hot the bike actually is.  If the product has a boiling point (at 1.1 bar) of 350F, the coolant may be running 349F and you'd never know it !   And because they aren't as good at transferring heat as water based coolants, the cylinder wall is going to be even hotter than that.  In my book its a recipe for putting extreme heat stress on the engine.

 

4) Because the super coolants have inferior heat transfer, it reduces the cooling capacity of the radiators from what they might do with a water based coolant.  Thus the over all cooling capacity of the system is reduced, just when you want it to be as effective as it can be.

 

I prefer water at a higher pressure over using a super coolant for the following reasons.

 

1) It keeps the cylinder wall temp as close as possible to the coolant temp.

 

2) The system lets me know if dangerous temperatures have been reached, ie boil over signs will start at 280F or so.

 

3) It doesn't decrease the cooling capacity of the radiators.

 

4) If I do experience a boil over, I can top up the system with water in an emergency.  Some super coolants are required to be 100% water free.

 

 

It's interesting you call them inferior as in defective ? 

 

Like I say I have personally run straight anti freeze for years and years. Both the supermoto and dirt bikes. The Supermoto has over 10,000 miles on it and the dirt has a lot as well. Both bikes are built and run very hard. Straight coolant will boil and go into the overflow tank then back to the radiator. Just my experience with it.



  • MidlifeCrisisGuy

Posted June 28, 2014 - 07:49 PM

#25

It's interesting you call them inferior as in defective ? 

 

Like I say I have personally run straight anti freeze for years and years. Both the supermoto and dirt bikes. The Supermoto has over 10,000 miles on it and the dirt has a lot as well. Both bikes are built and run very hard. Straight coolant will boil and go into the overflow tank then back to the radiator. Just my experience with it.

 

There is actually one other thing that goes on.  When the coolant boils out of the rad, its at the boiling temp inside the rad, under pressure.  Ie 260F or whatever, not 212F, that would be at atmospheric pressure.   So when the rad dumps coolant into the catch bottle, hopefully it immediately cools down to sub 212F.  If not, some of it is going to boil out of the catch  bottle.  And when the rad cap cools down and goes to suck it back in, there will be less of it, because some boiled away outside the radiator.



  • stevethe

Posted June 29, 2014 - 06:56 PM

#26

There is actually one other thing that goes on. When the coolant boils out of the rad, its at the boiling temp inside the rad, under pressure. Ie 260F or whatever, not 212F, that would be at atmospheric pressure. So when the rad dumps coolant into the catch bottle, hopefully it immediately cools down to sub 212F. If not, some of it is going to boil out of the catch bottle. And when the rad cap cools down and goes to suck it back in, there will be less of it, because some boiled away outside the radiator.


It hasent gotten out of the catch bottle. Seems to suck back into the radiator and work well. When I get home the catch bottle has that small amount left in it that I left with. Pretty much maintenance free. I was a doubter in the beginning, but now I'm a believer.

  • motopsycho2

Posted June 30, 2014 - 12:19 AM

#27

Well if coolant is in the catch bottle it means that it is not within the cooling system. It would mean bubbles have displaced the coolant leaving air in the system. Air isn't a very good conductor of heat.

Yes, coolant gets sucked back into the radiator when your bike has cooled off but itsn't that sending reinforcements when the battle is over?  

The other point in question is that do you want such a sudden temperature difference in exchange inside your bike? will it cause anything to warp?

 

I may not have the answer:) but for now Evans does make a lot of sense to me.  

 

Are there any other Evans Powersports users? Wanna share your thoughts?  



  • hawaiidirtrider

Posted June 30, 2014 - 01:15 AM

#28

Well if coolant is in the catch bottle it means that it is not within the cooling system. It would mean bubbles have displaced the coolant leaving air in the system. Air isn't a very good conductor of heat.

Yes, coolant gets sucked back into the radiator when your bike has cooled off but itsn't that sending reinforcements when the battle is over?  

The other point in question is that do you want such a sudden temperature difference in exchange inside your bike? will it cause anything to warp?

 

I may not have the answer:) but for now Evans does make a lot of sense to me.  

 

Are there any other Evans Powersports users? Wanna share your thoughts?  

 

The point is evans is running at a way higher temp and you don't know if it's hurting your engine or not. I think it probably is. To me the motor is not designed to run that hot. Boiling is a sign to stop because it's too hot. So to improve conditions how about putting a bigger volume radiators to help with cooling and make other mods to adjust to the overheating..you know like make it run cooler? Maybe it's easy to run evans and just run your motor way hotter than designed and your bike isn't boiling over but it's not cooler or better for your motor.  It's up to everyone what they rather do. Running evans may be simpler.. but I do not think it's better. It's not better running way hotter but your motor is taking the hit.. It may be fine for some.. I just rather have the motor just run cooler than put something in that runs way hotter but doesn't boil out. How about a fan.. that's common sense.. and an overflow bottle is there from the factory for bikes and cars from the factory for a reason. ..but everyone can run what they want. 

 

Here's my overheating playlist with a bunch of different approaches for ideas..   

 

https://www.youtube....giemYy570h46Ghx


Edited by hawaiidirtrider, June 30, 2014 - 01:25 AM.


  • motopsycho2

Posted June 30, 2014 - 07:56 AM

#29

Hey everyone, I must say although our believes belong to different ends of the spectrum, I really appreciate all your contributions to this debate.

I totally agree that its up to everyone what they want to run in their engines but more importantly is that we share our experiences in this forum so that everyone else can make a better informed decision.

 

Let me take it one step further, to dissect the engine. Lets take a look at what components are heat sensitive:

1) Metal (magnesium,steel, aluminum) 

2) Silicon and rubber Gaskets 

3) Rubber or polymer seals

4) Rubber and silicon hoses

not sure if i missed out any other material?... pls feel free to throw in if i missed out.

All the above, if you throw it into a pressure cooker and cook it in water for a day, non of its properties is going to change. (Except maybe some form of corrosion...which is the other reason not to use water in your engine.) Therefore, non of the above is going to be dissolved or crack in 120 degree heat.  

Now, if we assembled all that together and add in moving parts with tight tolerances we will need to lubricate it with oil to reduce friction.

Therefore, can I say that even if I ran my engine hotter as long as I monitor my engine oil and change quality oils regularly my engine will last a long time? and as long as expansion and contraction is consistent nothing is going to warp or crack or jam? 

 

Now the other way around. imagine your engine's cooling system to be the pressure cooker.

We are technically boiling water or water based coolants within our cooling system are we not? All this pressure is constantly acting out wards trying to escape, isn't that the reason why we use high pressure rad caps and silicon hoses just to raise the boiling by a few degrees? With a highly pressurized system during a boil over any "weak spot" for example cylinder block that has not been torqued properly is potentially going to blow and spot a leak. Hoses and radiators get inflated with pressure and contract with cooling, constantly flexing and weakening the integrity of rubber and welds over time. Sooner or later it has to give. Yes, I am exaggerating alittle to give you guys the idea:)

 

So if I wanted a reliable bike to ride on because I do spend more that riding than doing repairs. I would want to take that pressure out of the equation and keep as much coolant in when the going gets tough. It is this rational that I am convinced that Evans work harder than water. Since the invention of combustion engines, water was the only available source for cooling thats why have deep trust for it. I think its time to explore alternatives now that waterless technology is available, for all you know someone might be able to squeeze out a few more hp from this:)

 

Sorry for going on non stop but I hope the above make sense. pheew.. 



  • MidlifeCrisisGuy

Posted June 30, 2014 - 08:24 AM

#30

Therefore, can I say that even if I ran my engine hotter as long as I monitor my engine oil and change quality oils regularly my engine will last a long time? and as long as expansion and contraction is consistent nothing is going to warp or crack or jam?

 

Valve seats and piston rings also give trouble.   And oil begins to break down at high temperatures.



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  • hawaiidirtrider

Posted June 30, 2014 - 12:52 PM

#31

Hey everyone, I must say although our believes belong to different ends of the spectrum, I really appreciate all your contributions to this debate.

I totally agree that its up to everyone what they want to run in their engines but more importantly is that we share our experiences in this forum so that everyone else can make a better informed decision.

 

Let me take it one step further, to dissect the engine. Lets take a look at what components are heat sensitive:

1) Metal (magnesium,steel, aluminum) 

2) Silicon and rubber Gaskets 

3) Rubber or polymer seals

4) Rubber and silicon hoses

not sure if i missed out any other material?... pls feel free to throw in if i missed out.

All the above, if you throw it into a pressure cooker and cook it in water for a day, non of its properties is going to change. (Except maybe some form of corrosion...which is the other reason not to use water in your engine.) Therefore, non of the above is going to be dissolved or crack in 120 degree heat.  

Now, if we assembled all that together and add in moving parts with tight tolerances we will need to lubricate it with oil to reduce friction.

Therefore, can I say that even if I ran my engine hotter as long as I monitor my engine oil and change quality oils regularly my engine will last a long time? and as long as expansion and contraction is consistent nothing is going to warp or crack or jam? 

 

Now the other way around. imagine your engine's cooling system to be the pressure cooker.

We are technically boiling water or water based coolants within our cooling system are we not? All this pressure is constantly acting out wards trying to escape, isn't that the reason why we use high pressure rad caps and silicon hoses just to raise the boiling by a few degrees? With a highly pressurized system during a boil over any "weak spot" for example cylinder block that has not been torqued properly is potentially going to blow and spot a leak. Hoses and radiators get inflated with pressure and contract with cooling, constantly flexing and weakening the integrity of rubber and welds over time. Sooner or later it has to give. Yes, I am exaggerating alittle to give you guys the idea:)

 

So if I wanted a reliable bike to ride on because I do spend more that riding than doing repairs. I would want to take that pressure out of the equation and keep as much coolant in when the going gets tough. It is this rational that I am convinced that Evans work harder than water. Since the invention of combustion engines, water was the only available source for cooling thats why have deep trust for it. I think its time to explore alternatives now that waterless technology is available, for all you know someone might be able to squeeze out a few more hp from this:)

 

Sorry for going on non stop but I hope the above make sense. pheew.. 

 

That's the thing.. Evans doesn't cool  or work harder than water . It just doesn't boil till it's way hotter and it's an alternative to actually cooling the motor more.. and it's a trade off for those that rather not just do what you have to do to have the bike run cooler. The thing about dirt bikes is that really the size of the radiators and their volume are cut down to save weight trying to keep the bike lighter and smaller.. Really the amount of coolant should be much larger to handle the heat of the motor in those times where bikes definitely boil over. So what does evans do? It raises the level of boiling point. Does that make sense?  It doesn't cool the bike more.. It's a trade off from doing what manufactureres purposely held back on because of weight and size.. that was their trade off from actually just putting the volume of water that would actually handle the added heat. So really now the aftermarket companies make money on selling bigger radiators and oil coolers and big volume waterpumps and higher volume impellars and higher pressure caps. Most of those actually address cooling. Evans does not but it's a good product and an easy address to this overheating element of dirtbike riding.  It's an alternative and it's ok but I just think the bikes should have been designed right and creating a cooling system that actually controlls cooling lower is the right way.. but that's just me. Evans is cheaper.. I don't think it's better.

 

I'll give you an example. Do you see Baja Trophy trucks just run evans and be done with it?  No they do it right and put huge high volume radiatiors with massive fans and a host of other modifications.

 

http://www.kartek.co...-Radiators.aspx

 

It's the same for dirt bikes. Look at ktm, and honda and yamaha and all the bikes.. Larger radiators are big in aftermarket.. and that's just radiators.. It's a huge market to deal with what manufacturers have created because they were half assed in design.


Edited by hawaiidirtrider, June 30, 2014 - 01:17 PM.


  • bobpara

Posted July 01, 2014 - 12:47 PM

#32

Something does not quite add up for me here

A stock WR in good running condition should not boil over this easily

I think i /we are missing some key piece of info



  • vlxjim

Posted July 01, 2014 - 01:31 PM

#33

Thats what I'm saying. 



  • stevethe

Posted July 01, 2014 - 02:02 PM

#34

Something does not quite add up for me here
A stock WR in good running condition should not boil over this easily
I think i /we are missing some key piece of info


What do you mean this easy.
Most people don't ride up the trails or monster hill climbs we do. They call it a death march.

  • hawaiidirtrider

Posted July 01, 2014 - 02:27 PM

#35

Something does not quite add up for me here

A stock WR in good running condition should not boil over this easily

I think i /we are missing some key piece of info

 

In tough enduro situations 2 strokes rule because of the type of tight technical slow trails we have and the mud and obstacles.. Look at erzberg.. Do you see wr's in the lineup? It's all 2 stroke. 4 strokes run hotter and that's why they are second on the list beside having more weight. A stock wr in good running condition will boil like everything else  around here.. If 2 strokes boil 4 strokes will boil faster.. It's also what you ride. No problem if you ride roads.



  • hawaiidirtrider

Posted July 01, 2014 - 03:02 PM

#36

Did you check ebay?

.radiators.and hose..

http://www.ebay.com/...3e11264&vxp=mtr

 

 

Did you put searches on Youtube?

..here's just one..



  • stevethe

Posted July 01, 2014 - 03:18 PM

#37

In tough enduro situations 2 strokes rule because of the type of tight technical slow trails we have and the mud and obstacles.. Look at erzberg.. Do you see wr's in the lineup? It's all 2 stroke. 4 strokes run hotter and that's why they are second on the list beside having more weight. A stock wr in good running condition will boil like everything else around here.. If 2 strokes boil 4 strokes will boil faster.. It's also what you ride. No problem if you ride roads.


Nonsense Erzburg is all about weight like going over boulder after boulder. That's where the 300 shines.
Easy to keep it from boiling with Evans or straight coolant.

  • hawaiidirtrider

Posted July 01, 2014 - 03:25 PM

#38

Nonsense Erzburg is all about weight like going over boulder after boulder. That's where the 300 shines.
Easy to keep it from boiling with Evans or straight coolant.

What like this bike boiling? Come on now .. You know 4 strokes run way hotter than 2 strokes.  ..and you can run Evans and it still is running hotter...just not boiling



  • stevethe

Posted July 01, 2014 - 03:36 PM

#39

What like this bike boiling? Come on now .. You know 4 strokes run way hotter than 2 strokes.  ..and you can run Evans and it still is running hotter...just not boiling


I'm not sure who cares what runs hotter and cooler ?

Look in my Thumpertalk garage at the 07 wr450 below is a vid. of a hill climb where no ktm 300 has ever gone. Ask me about the heat. If you can't stand it then get out of the kitchen. I guess. I don't feel any excessive heat.

  • Navaho6

Posted July 01, 2014 - 04:44 PM

#40

I am not promoting the Evans.  I've never used it but this the guy said that the Evans ran 7 degrees cooler than anything else he had used before.  He was preparing for Erzberg.

 

Fast forward to 3;40:

https://www.youtube....giemYy570h46Ghx


Edited by Navaho6, July 01, 2014 - 04:46 PM.






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