2012+ WR450F: Suspension setup question: "Pogo Stick"


27 replies to this topic
  • mebgardner

Posted March 12, 2014 - 07:23 AM

#1

My cycle's front end acts like a pogo stick when I take a rock face, or rocky hillside, too fast (or more likely wrong line).

 

My buddy's CRF450, when ridden on the same trail, I have no problems and it's front end feels "planted" when taking the face or hillside.

 

 

I have factory settings for rebound and compression, front and rear, but I have set the sag correctly already.

 

I *think* I need more compression, and less rebound.

 

Would someone please confirm, or set me aright?



  • vlxjim

Posted March 12, 2014 - 07:51 AM

#2

You need more rebound. Start with your rebound first by slowing it down. I would go three clicks in. See if that makes a difference try a click or two in or a click out. Once you know your rebound add a little compression. Did you change the springs? If so you my need to re-valve as stock valves may not keep you in the stroke.



  • GP1K

Posted March 12, 2014 - 08:37 AM

#3

More important: how much do you weigh? If you're too light or too heavy for your stock springs, no amount of fiddling with the clickers will make it better. You did say you set the sag correctly, which would indicate the stock springs work for you, no?

 

And just to review, which may help point you in the right direction, compression damping is what stops the suspension from compressing too much/too quickly on big hits. More compression typically means it will take bigger hits, but feel harsher on smaller trail junk. Rebound damping is what pushes the suspension back down after a hit. Too little rebound and the suspension can 'pack' down, meaning it never fully recovers from one hit before another hit, so you're losing travel/suspension action with each hit. Too much rebound and your bike springs off hits. Probably more noticeable in the rear, where it can feel like the back end is trying to buck you over the bars.

 

So you may need more compression and less rebound, but hard to say with limited info given.



  • mebgardner

Posted March 12, 2014 - 11:17 AM

#4

More important: how much do you weigh? If you're too light or too heavy for your stock springs, no amount of fiddling with the clickers will make it better. You did say you set the sag correctly, which would indicate the stock springs work for you, no?

 

And just to review, which may help point you in the right direction, compression damping is what stops the suspension from compressing too much/too quickly on big hits. More compression typically means it will take bigger hits, but feel harsher on smaller trail junk. Rebound damping is what pushes the suspension back down after a hit. Too little rebound and the suspension can 'pack' down, meaning it never fully recovers from one hit before another hit, so you're losing travel/suspension action with each hit. Too much rebound and your bike springs off hits. Probably more noticeable in the rear, where it can feel like the back end is trying to buck you over the bars.

 

So you may need more compression and less rebound, but hard to say with limited info given.

 

Stocks spring are in use, and fine. I'm ~185 lbs. all up clothing backpack etc.

 

This becomes a point when I see the Motoventure's trainers face-to-face.  They can help me set this up :)



  • mebgardner

Posted March 12, 2014 - 11:23 AM

#5

You need more rebound. Start with your rebound first by slowing it down. I would go three clicks in. See if that makes a difference try a click or two in or a click out. Once you know your rebound add a little compression. Did you change the springs? If so you my need to re-valve as stock valves may not keep you in the stroke.

 

I note that the rebound assessment disagrees with GP1K.  He says "less rebound" and defines what he means.  Your advice is to "slow it down", and I think in that you both agree.

 

3 clicks "in" (clockwise, I think) does this "slow it down / less rebound"? Yes? On each fork, right?


Edited by mebgardner, March 12, 2014 - 11:24 AM.


  • Krannie McKranface

Posted March 12, 2014 - 01:15 PM

#6

Click the rebound adjuster on both forks 2 clicks clockwise, then ride to test.

The forks are speed sensitive, so they will react differently from a sharp edge vs a g-out.

 

Please be aware that 2 clicks of rebound will affect compression as if you clicked them in about 1/2-1 turn more compression, so you may have to adjust that too.



  • mebgardner

Posted March 12, 2014 - 03:06 PM

#7

Click the rebound adjuster on both forks 2 clicks clockwise, then ride to test.

The forks are speed sensitive, so they will react differently from a sharp edge vs a g-out.

 

Please be aware that 2 clicks of rebound will affect compression as if you clicked them in about 1/2-1 turn more compression, so you may have to adjust that too.

 

Thanks, but that's not quite clear to me yet.

 

Is "2 clicks clockwise" equal to "2 clicks in", *and* equal to "less rebound" or "more rebound"?

 

My point is, if it's not, and "2 clicks in" is actually *more* rebound, then your advice is opposite of that offered by the other two guys.

 

I've heard from my friend today, he says his CRF450 is set up "near the softest settings". These cycle's front ends take a beating when we hit those canyon waterfall leading edges, at speed. So, thats likely why he has his set up near softest settings.



  • mebgardner

Posted March 12, 2014 - 03:12 PM

#8

Click the rebound adjuster on both forks 2 clicks clockwise, then ride to test.

The forks are speed sensitive, so they will react differently from a sharp edge vs a g-out.

 

Please be aware that 2 clicks of rebound will affect compression as if you clicked them in about 1/2-1 turn more compression, so you may have to adjust that too.

 

Is the opposite also true? Adjust the rebound for "more rebound", and you get, as a by-product "more compression", and adjust the rebound for "less rebound", and you get, as a by-product "less compression"?

 

How about the crossover effects of the compression adjustment? Adjust the compression for "more compression", and you get, as a by-product "more rebound", and adjust the compression for "less compression", and you get, as a by-product "less rebound"?

 

We call this "crosstalk" in electronics.



  • Krannie McKranface

Posted March 12, 2014 - 04:34 PM

#9

You are over thinking this.

 

Clockwise is 'more' damping action = slower wheel up/down movement

Counter clockwise is 'less' damping action = faster up/down wheel movement

 

Rebound action is acting on the extending of the fork/shock

Compression action is acting on the compressing of the fork/shock

 

Rebound affects compression and vice versa

Rebound has more effect on compression than the other way around.

 

You have to ride it to know.

 

Copying someone else's settings is pretty much useless unless every single thing about their bike, size, and style is exactly the same.

 

Write down your starting point, changes, and final numbers. 

You will forget if you don't.

The suspension should be reactive enough that when you stop hard with the front brake when standing, you don't feel like you are diving.

If it feels dive-y, you need more compression.

If it gets too harsh for you, then you need re-valving.

 

You should always ride a tiny bit stiffer than what you 'like' because it is much safer and provides much more control.

 

Click out the compression a few clicks, then test the rebound and adjust.

Revisit the compression and add if needed.

 

You cannot judge anything sitting still in your garage.

It only matters while riding.

 

You must set the sage correctly (in other words, correct spring rate problems first) before doing any of this or it will just be confusing.

 

Sag should be 25mm static and 100mm race to start with; you can vary it to suit.


Edited by TheKoolAidMadeMeSick, March 12, 2014 - 04:37 PM.


  • vlxjim

Posted March 12, 2014 - 09:52 PM

#10

Sorry more rebound damping (slow it down). Just try the 2 click in and go ride. You have to start somewhere.

 

And yes set the sag. I bet it is very close if your 185lbs with stock springs. 


Edited by vlxjim, March 12, 2014 - 09:56 PM.


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  • mebgardner

Posted March 13, 2014 - 06:29 AM

#11

You are over thinking this.

 

Clockwise is 'more' damping action = slower wheel up/down movement

Counter clockwise is 'less' damping action = faster up/down wheel movement

 

Rebound action is acting on the extending of the fork/shock

Compression action is acting on the compressing of the fork/shock

 

Rebound affects compression and vice versa

Rebound has more effect on compression than the other way around.

 

You have to ride it to know.

 

Copying someone else's settings is pretty much useless unless every single thing about their bike, size, and style is exactly the same.

 

Write down your starting point, changes, and final numbers. 

You will forget if you don't.

The suspension should be reactive enough that when you stop hard with the front brake when standing, you don't feel like you are diving.

If it feels dive-y, you need more compression.

If it gets too harsh for you, then you need re-valving.

 

You should always ride a tiny bit stiffer than what you 'like' because it is much safer and provides much more control.

 

Click out the compression a few clicks, then test the rebound and adjust.

Revisit the compression and add if needed.

 

You cannot judge anything sitting still in your garage.

It only matters while riding.

 

You must set the sage correctly (in other words, correct spring rate problems first) before doing any of this or it will just be confusing.

 

Sag should be 25mm static and 100mm race to start with; you can vary it to suit.

 

Thank You, All.

 

This is clear to me now.

 

Thank You...


Edited by mebgardner, March 13, 2014 - 06:31 AM.


  • Krannie McKranface

Posted March 13, 2014 - 12:31 PM

#12

Thank You, All.

 

This is clear to me now.

 

Thank You...

 

 

Please send money.



  • RMK800

Posted March 13, 2014 - 04:12 PM

#13

I'd be broke if I sent money for every tip you provided.

I've been so caught up on fork travel and messed with your tip standing. My compression was off, I could tell I was a bit too soft and probably not as safe. Made some changes, better now. Thank you.

  • Krannie McKranface

Posted March 13, 2014 - 05:55 PM

#14

You are welcome.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

....send money.



  • grayracer513

Posted March 14, 2014 - 06:55 AM

#15

To sort out what you need to do with your fork, you have to first correctly analyze what it's doing.  On a rocky climb, the wheel may either deflect of of rocks on impact, or compress to absorb the strike and then rebound off of the rock too vigorously.  With the SSS fork, it's more likely that it's deflecting due to too much high speed compression damping, rather than rebounding too quickly.

 

Basics: There are two energy absorbing systems in the fork, the springs and the hydraulic dampers.  The primary energy absorber is the springs.  The dampers are there to absorb the extra energy that the springs can't during compression over really big hits (like when you were 8, and you jumped off the bathroom counter onto the scale so you could "weigh 300 pounds"), and to control the release of the absorbed energy by the spring during rebound. 

 

More: The clickers control the size of a bypass orifice that provides a way around the valves in the hydraulic system.  The oil then has two paths to flow through one of which, the valves, are preprogrammed, and the other, the clicker passages, is adjustable.  Clockwise, tighter, in, all mean more resistance to motion.  Out means less.

 

How the fork works: There are two sets of valves in the SSS fork on your '12, one is compression only, and the other is a combination of the rebound valve and a secondary compression valve, called the "mid valve".  The rebound and mid valve share the same bleed passage, so the rebound clicker has some effect on compression damping, but because rebound damping is more restrictive, and because there's more than one compression valve, it's about 4 or 5 times more effective on rebound than compression.  The compression clicker controls the main compression, or "base" valve, which is a single function device that has no bearing on rebound, so the compression adjuster has no direct effect on rebound at all.  In a dynamic sense, it can be seen that if the fork was so heavily damped on compression that it made it compress less, there would then be less of a rebound event to follow it, but there is no other effect that the comp clicker can have on rebound.

 

I would imagine in the OP's case that it's a deflection issue, and probably not rebound, but he should observe carefully what's actually happening as the wheel starts skipping around.  If it's rebound, the fork will compress on striking the rock, then pogo stick off of it before the wheel has cleared the top of the rock.  If it's deflecting, the wheel will bounce away from the rock before the fork begins to rebound.  Because of the way the SSS fork is generally set up, my guess is it's much more likely to be a deflection problem. The first thing I'd probably try would be backing off (turning out) the compression clickers about 5-8 clicks and see what the effect is.



  • mebgardner

Posted March 14, 2014 - 11:44 AM

#16

To sort out what you need to do with your fork, you have to first correctly analyze what it's doing.  On a rocky climb, the wheel may either deflect of of rocks on impact, or compress to absorb the strike and then rebound off of the rock too vigorously.  With the SSS fork, it's more likely that it's deflecting due to too much high speed compression damping, rather than rebounding too quickly.

 

Basics: There are two energy absorbing systems in the fork, the springs and the hydraulic dampers.  The primary energy absorber is the springs.  The dampers are there to absorb the extra energy that the springs can't during compression over really big hits (like when you were 8, and you jumped off the bathroom counter onto the scale so you could "weigh 300 pounds"), and to control the release of the absorbed energy by the spring during rebound. 

 

More: The clickers control the size of a bypass orifice that provides a way around the valves in the hydraulic system.  The oil then has two paths to flow through one of which, the valves, are preprogrammed, and the other, the clicker passages, is adjustable.  Clockwise, tighter, in, all mean more resistance to motion.  Out means less.

 

How the fork works: There are two sets of valves in the SSS fork on your '12, one is compression only, and the other is a combination of the rebound valve and a secondary compression valve, called the "mid valve".  The rebound and mid valve share the same bleed passage, so the rebound clicker has some effect on compression damping, but because rebound damping is more restrictive, and because there's more than one compression valve, it's about 4 or 5 times more effective on rebound than compression.  The compression clicker controls the main compression, or "base" valve, which is a single function device that has no bearing on rebound, so the compression adjuster has no direct effect on rebound at all.  In a dynamic sense, it can be seen that if the fork was so heavily damped on compression that it made it compress less, there would then be less of a rebound event to follow it, but there is no other effect that the comp clicker can have on rebound.

 

I would imagine in the OP's case that it's a deflection issue, and probably not rebound, but he should observe carefully what's actually happening as the wheel starts skipping around.  If it's rebound, the fork will compress on striking the rock, then pogo stick off of it before the wheel has cleared the top of the rock.  If it's deflecting, the wheel will bounce away from the rock before the fork begins to rebound.  Because of the way the SSS fork is generally set up, my guess is it's much more likely to be a deflection problem. The first thing I'd probably try would be backing off (turning out) the compression clickers about 5-8 clicks and see what the effect is.

 

Very Concise. Very Useful.

 

Thank You So Much for this Clarity.

 

I also have a Scotts damper system, the type with the rubber mounts. It's dialled in pretty tight on the "main" control for deflection damping already (not too tight). The rocks are generally big, sometimes they're a rock cliff face, angling facing "up" (you know, that immovable object thing), and generally taken fast to maintain momentum for the climb...

 

I got that Scotts system after being vaulted off a cliff, on the "wrong" side of "over".

 

Anyway, it's set tight for deflection prevention. Now, the front end pogo's when I take these big rock / cliffs. Sometimes, it wags but I *think* I remember it doing that from coming back down, and then striking another big rock in the "rock garden", and then bouncing skyward again and wagging (I wound up in the sh*t from poor line control...).

 

But, I got your points. I'll continue to sharpen my observation skills and see what I can learn from them, for future adjustments.

 

Again, many thanks.



  • mebgardner

Posted March 14, 2014 - 11:48 AM

#17

You are welcome.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

....send money.

 

How about I donate to your favorite charity? (Not You :)

 

I'd be willing to do that, you let me know.



  • GP1K

Posted March 14, 2014 - 12:58 PM

#18

Very Concise. Very Useful.

 

Thank You So Much for this Clarity.

 

I also have a Scotts damper system, the type with the rubber mounts. It's dialled in pretty tight on the "main" control for deflection damping already (not too tight). The rocks are generally big, sometimes they're a rock cliff face, angling facing "up" (you know, that immovable object thing), and generally taken fast to maintain momentum for the climb...

 

I got that Scotts system after being vaulted off a cliff, on the "wrong" side of "over".

 

Anyway, it's set tight for deflection prevention. Now, the front end pogo's when I take these big rock / cliffs. Sometimes, it wags but I *think* I remember it doing that from coming back down, and then striking another big rock in the "rock garden", and then bouncing skyward again and wagging (I wound up in the sh*t from poor line control...).

 

But, I got your points. I'll continue to sharpen my observation skills and see what I can learn from them, for future adjustments.

 

Again, many thanks.

 

When you say 'tight but not too tight' on your damper, what do you mean exactly? And by 'main' do you mean the big, slow speed damping knob? You really don't want to run your damper too tight unless you ride nothing but high speed desert or something. Too tight just makes your steering sluggish and wears you out quicker fighting the damping. I run mine at the default of 8 clicks out. Besides, it's the high speed circuit that helps against big/fast hits, not low speed. You're not doing yourself any favors cranking your low speed damping down.



  • mebgardner

Posted March 14, 2014 - 05:47 PM

#19

When you say 'tight but not too tight' on your damper, what do you mean exactly? And by 'main' do you mean the big, slow speed damping knob? You really don't want to run your damper too tight unless you ride nothing but high speed desert or something. Too tight just makes your steering sluggish and wears you out quicker fighting the damping. I run mine at the default of 8 clicks out. Besides, it's the high speed circuit that helps against big/fast hits, not low speed. You're not doing yourself any favors cranking your low speed damping down.

 

So, I checked before replying.

 

The Base Control Valve is at "3 clicks out" from full clockwise.  Recommended setting is "8 clicks out" from full CW.

 

The High Speed Valve and Sweep Control Value are at factory setting.

 

I'm guessing this is not optimal for the conditions I'm describing?



  • Krannie McKranface

Posted March 14, 2014 - 06:02 PM

#20

You might want to consider a re-valving. I have never been able to get any stock forks to adjust to my needs, regardless of clicker settings.

 

I'm on my  fourth WR, and this one has the YZ suspension, and it's on it's second re-valve right now (while out for maintenance...)






 
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