2012+ WR450 Fuel Injection and Lean Maps: Newbie Caution


19 replies to this topic
  • mebgardner

Posted March 04, 2014 - 10:54 AM

#1

For you Newbie and Low Time Intermediates, I discovered this interesting "issue" of Lean Fuel Injection Mapping, almost the hard way.

 

If you're following the "Maps Only" thread, I'm the guys attempting to program my 2013 WR450F with an FI map that will yield a greater range distance.

 

I'm also a Low Saddle Time type (a "new guy", less than 100 hrs) for this cycle, but I own (and have owned) many different Fuel Injected cycles.

 

I'm decades into my motorcycling career, and I have no analogy / similarity for this particular issue. I think it's unique to high torque dirt cycles, and *possibly* to only those that are fuel injected. I'll explain why I believe that in a moment, but on to the issue.

 

So, I'm playing around with the GYTR Programmer, and I'm riding with a FI Map that "leans out" the fuel, and "retards" the ignition, over a broad range of the FI map (the map array of digits). Here' I want to focus on the Low Throttle / Low Power end of the maps (the lower left hand corner of the array).

 

While I'm riding one of these "lean" and "retarded" maps, I notice the cycle engine's throttle response is very abrupt, on / off switch like. Twist a little, and it's *there*, lots of grunt, torque being put down. Roll that little bit off, and the motor is *off* like a light bulb gone dark.

 

Call it "hit", "snap", whatever.

 

For me, it became very difficult to ride it well.

 

Here's what happened. I'm heading through a rock wash, in canyon country. I'm down one wall, through the wash, and heading up the other side. While heading uphill, I hit some bump, some rock. The throttle "blips" in my hand. Power comes up, abruptly, and the front wheel lifts. I'm heading off the back of the cycle, from the force of the torque being applied. I manage to not roll on any more throttle, and I'm gripping everything in fear, waiting for the cycle to finish coming up, over, and land on top of me...

 

It does not. The front wheel comes back down, and on I go. I've had two of these, now (I was ready for it, the second time).

 

I'm told many things about that experience, from others more experienced, who I relate this story to.

 

I think you see my point. "New Guys" can get in over their heads with this FI Map programming business.

 

Just be aware that some FI Maps have "UnIntended Consequences" if you choose to ride them. The one's with lots of (-X) numbers, negative numbers, you want to look at / consider with care.

 

I was developing the "lean" map with an eye towards extending the cycle range, because I have some "range anxiety" for the smallish 2 gal tank where I ride.

 

This is not the best solution for a "new guy". A better solution, and one that I'm rolling with, is to buy and mount a bigger tank (IMS 3.0 gal for 33% more fuel), and a "softer" FI map that softens the motors throttle response at low throttle / low power settings.

 

I'm also looking at throttle cams (highly recommended), rear sprocket with more teeth, heavier flywheel (this idea now discarded), and Training More Training.

 

My hope is, this writeup will help someone avoid a potentially very bad situation.

 

Why I believe it may be related to a small sub-set of cycles (High power, high displacement, programmable FI dirt bikes).

 

So, I've ridden other 450 dirt bikes, carburated, pumper ones, set up by a knowledgable mechanic, for the general altitude where it be operating. I've had the "wow, that front wheel come up easy" moments. I know what that is.

 

I also have a stable of other street bikes with FI, bone stock from OEM, and so they run lean. They all actually run really well, and they "sip" gas pretty sparingly.

 

I know what lean, anemic cars and cycles ride like. Low power, low joy. Pretty good range...

 

None of those are like this. This is unique in my experiences. I might start calling that lower left corner of the FI map "coffin corner", referring to a term every aircraft pilot is familiar with.

 

That initial "hit", or "snap", and that it's programmable to be violent (very "snappy") or not. *Thats* unique, I think.



  • Krannie McKranface

Posted March 04, 2014 - 03:12 PM

#2

Practice practice practice

If you remove the instant on, you won't have it when you need it, which is often.



  • vlxjim

Posted March 05, 2014 - 12:22 AM

#3

Running low numbers on the map does not = lower MPG. A lean engine is not a tuned engine. When the engine is tuned right you get more power and more power = less throttle. The deal is the more power you have the more power you will use. If you keep that in mind and stay off the gas you can increase your MPG. 



  • Thearmyman83

Posted March 05, 2014 - 07:51 AM

#4

BINGO


Running low numbers on the map does not = lower MPG. A lean engine is not a tuned engine. When the engine is tuned right you get more power and more power = less throttle. The deal is the more power you have the more power you will use. If you keep that in mind and stay off the gas you can increase your MPG.



  • mebgardner

Posted March 05, 2014 - 11:48 AM

#5

Running low numbers on the map does not = lower MPG. A lean engine is not a tuned engine. When the engine is tuned right you get more power and more power = less throttle. The deal is the more power you have the more power you will use. If you keep that in mind and stay off the gas you can increase your MPG. 

 

I agree with most of what you've written.

 

*But*, I have data from myself and others that indicates "Running higher numbers on the map *does* = lower MPG".

 

The inverse is:  "Running lower numbers on the map *does* = *higher* MPG".

 

...and this actually makes sense. Lower numbers are indicating a lower fuel charge will be delivered to the motor, at that setting. What the motor does with it (economically speaking) depends on a bunch of other conditions.

 

So, this is opposite from what you've written, and I've restated it to clarify my meaning and what I believe, based on available data.

 

But, I get your point: stay off the gas on a "properly tuned" engine (not necessarialy tuned lean), and MPG goes up.



  • mebgardner

Posted March 05, 2014 - 11:54 AM

#6

Practice practice practice

If you remove the instant on, you won't have it when you need it, which is often.

 

Agreed. ...and, I *do* want that.  I *do* want to move "back" to maps that are more economical to use (ie: offer more range), and a by-product of using them is now apparent to me: They require greater skill to manage the power delivery, the "snap".

 

Also, the fact that this "feature" of "hit" abruptness *is* programmable can be viewed as a benefit. To the new guys, like me :)

 

So, yes, there's still no subsitute for seat time.

 

Sometimes, I do wish that was my day job :)  Sometimes...


Edited by mebgardner, March 05, 2014 - 12:04 PM.


  • WouldsAssassin

Posted March 05, 2014 - 12:48 PM

#7

Running low numbers on the map does not = lower MPG. A lean engine is not a tuned engine. When the engine is tuned right you get more power and more power = less throttle. The deal is the more power you have the more power you will use. If you keep that in mind and stay off the gas you can increase your MPG.


Sometimes the internets makes me laugh.

To the OP, you're going about it the right way to reduce your abrupt throttle tip in and increase range. Lean it out and play with the ignition timing. However, an aftermarket company, Injectioneering, would have you believe the problem with the abrupt throttle is in design of the throttle body itself. I believe them as I have driven/ridden many FI vehicles but none are as abupt as my Yamaha YZ. I might send them my TB to be worked over but I'm still on the fence and I've tuned out the abruptness to make it pretty controllable.

Magazines and other shadetree mechanics have posted stating retard timing and flood the cylinder with extra gas to smooth it out and that will work but it kills your range.

Yamaha released a handful of maps for the YZ and the one that smoothed out throttle tip in cut fuel and advanced the timing. I've been using the "drivability" map on my YZ with pretty good success. Throttle tip in is smoother and my range is much improved. I've gotten over 70 miles of mixed offroad riding on about 2 gallons of gas from my IMS tanked 2011.

I recommend you try that map out on your WR or try similar tuning. I'd post it here but I'm on mobile. You can find it in the sticky on the YZ450 forum.

  • mebgardner

Posted March 06, 2014 - 11:27 AM

#8

Sometimes the internets makes me laugh.

To the OP, you're going about it the right way to reduce your abrupt throttle tip in and increase range. Lean it out and play with the ignition timing. However, an aftermarket company, Injectioneering, would have you believe the problem with the abrupt throttle is in design of the throttle body itself. I believe them as I have driven/ridden many FI vehicles but none are as abupt as my Yamaha YZ. I might send them my TB to be worked over but I'm still on the fence and I've tuned out the abruptness to make it pretty controllable.

Magazines and other shadetree mechanics have posted stating retard timing and flood the cylinder with extra gas to smooth it out and that will work but it kills your range.

Yamaha released a handful of maps for the YZ and the one that smoothed out throttle tip in cut fuel and advanced the timing. I've been using the "drivability" map on my YZ with pretty good success. Throttle tip in is smoother and my range is much improved. I've gotten over 70 miles of mixed offroad riding on about 2 gallons of gas from my IMS tanked 2011.

I recommend you try that map out on your WR or try similar tuning. I'd post it here but I'm on mobile. You can find it in the sticky on the YZ450 forum.

 

I'll look for it, and post it in Maps Only thread when I have it.  Thanks, I'll have a look at it.



  • mebgardner

Posted March 06, 2014 - 11:56 AM

#9

Sometimes the internets makes me laugh.

To the OP, you're going about it the right way to reduce your abrupt throttle tip in and increase range. Lean it out and play with the ignition timing. However, an aftermarket company, Injectioneering, would have you believe the problem with the abrupt throttle is in design of the throttle body itself. I believe them as I have driven/ridden many FI vehicles but none are as abupt as my Yamaha YZ. I might send them my TB to be worked over but I'm still on the fence and I've tuned out the abruptness to make it pretty controllable.

Magazines and other shadetree mechanics have posted stating retard timing and flood the cylinder with extra gas to smooth it out and that will work but it kills your range.

Yamaha released a handful of maps for the YZ and the one that smoothed out throttle tip in cut fuel and advanced the timing. I've been using the "drivability" map on my YZ with pretty good success. Throttle tip in is smoother and my range is much improved. I've gotten over 70 miles of mixed offroad riding on about 2 gallons of gas from my IMS tanked 2011.

I recommend you try that map out on your WR or try similar tuning. I'd post it here but I'm on mobile. You can find it in the sticky on the YZ450 forum.

 

I did what I thought was a careful search for this map.

 

I found many references to it in this forum, in the YZ450 forum, and out on the web in general.

 

I could not find it listed on a Yamaha website at all.

 

It's listed in the WR450 Maps Only thread, by someone in this forum, as a map he has not used yet.

 

I hesitate to add it there until I have had a chance to use it.

 

But, I appreciate your cross pollination from the YZ450 forum.  Really, thanks, and I will eventually "get a round tuit" :)

 

I also noted some disagreement from GrayRacer, indicating he did not believe a map change would affect the "throttle tip in", throttle point. Just noted, is all I'm sayin'



  • WouldsAssassin

Posted March 06, 2014 - 12:26 PM

#10

Fuel Injection (FI)
-4 +4 -4
-4 +4 -4
-4 +4 -4
Ignition (IG)
+2 -5 +2
+2 -5 +2
+2 -5 +2

 

 

This is the map that I was speaking of. It came from the Yamaha Technicians manual. It definitely made my YZ easier to ride on the trails. I agree with Grayracer that the Powertuner will not be able to tune out the abrupt throttle tip in as it cannot adjust the settings from idle up to the first block. However, it can make a difference and has for me. Yes the bark is still there, but it is far more manageable than the stock map, gets better range and still lifts the front tire with ease. I only post it to help you with your quest  to make your bike easier for you to learn on and give you an idea of how you can tune it for what you want. I never thought less fuel and more ignition would soften up the power, but it did and it is really good for trail use.

 

Also I'm cheap and since you already own the powertuner you can play with the settings for free instead of putting more money into your bike. Try it, please let us know. I have a friend with a WR who's in a similar situation and will be tuning his bike in the near future for the same reasons you've listed in your posts.



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  • vlxjim

Posted March 06, 2014 - 12:47 PM

#11

I won't go into my resume but I'm far from a Shadetree mechanic. And I was not suggesting to flood the cylinder and kill the timing to make the bike run smooth. What I'm suggesting is tuning the bike so that it has a proper air fuel mixture. When we used to tune for endurance racing we would never lean a bike out for better fuel mileage. What good is fuel mileage if the bike can't finish the race. Having a properly tuned bike and a rider that can help with the fuel management by not hitting the gas as hard as he can every chance he gets and keeping it in the right gear is the better solution.

 

While the new fuel injected WRs are based off of a 2010 YZ motor it is not the same. Even bigger is the ECUs aren't the same at all. The comp ECU for the WR is a completely different ECU with a completely different fuel throttle body than what the YZ motor runs. That being said the look up tables and base maps of the comp ECU are completely different than the ones in the YZ ECU. The YZ maps are not made for the WR. The WR does not have the sudden tip in (lean state) that the YZ's have. As I said the YZ's fuel system is completely different.

 

To the OP: The WR's stock and comp ECU are very lean from the factory. Yamaha now is telling dealers to bump up the idle CO to 7, still a little lean. You need a FI diagnostic tool to make that change. This does not only make the bike idle cooler but also run smoother and removes the light switch hit off the bottom, its nice smooth hard power now. I like you want the bike a little bit more trackable and not so jerky in the technical stuff. Give my map a try I find that the "coffin corner" on my map has no surprise to it. Keep in mind that it was good before the CO change but now is great with a CO bump of 15. I know that you are looking for the most MPG's that you can get. But if you have opened up the pipe or changed the muffler you will need to bump up the fuel #'s. Just one thing to note is that if you find your bike back firing when you back off or let off the throttle you need to add fuel in that rpm range. A backfire is caused by a lean condition not from too much gas like some people think. 

 

And it would be more of a reverse coffin corner. As not stall but lift is encountered. ;)

 

Good Luck lets us know what you find.


Edited by vlxjim, March 06, 2014 - 01:03 PM.


  • vlxjim

Posted March 06, 2014 - 03:15 PM

#12

:thumbsup: Oh I see that you got the IF tool over at the starting woes thread. Smart move, the dealers are out of touch with whats going on. 



  • Baker187

Posted March 17, 2014 - 05:32 PM

#13

Aussie tune
Is fantastic I'm running 13 50 and it's so easy to get around the mx track or run around the Bush
Love my wr

  • Baker187

Posted March 17, 2014 - 08:03 PM

#14

Tunes

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  • mebgardner

Posted March 18, 2014 - 11:44 AM

#15

Tunes

 

Thanks. Already covered in "Maps Only" thread.  But, thanks for the thought.



  • mebgardner

Posted March 18, 2014 - 12:14 PM

#16

I won't go into my resume but I'm far from a Shadetree mechanic. And I was not suggesting to flood the cylinder and kill the timing to make the bike run smooth. What I'm suggesting is tuning the bike so that it has a proper air fuel mixture. When we used to tune for endurance racing we would never lean a bike out for better fuel mileage. What good is fuel mileage if the bike can't finish the race. Having a properly tuned bike and a rider that can help with the fuel management by not hitting the gas as hard as he can every chance he gets and keeping it in the right gear is the better solution.

 

While the new fuel injected WRs are based off of a 2010 YZ motor it is not the same. Even bigger is the ECUs aren't the same at all. The comp ECU for the WR is a completely different ECU with a completely different fuel throttle body than what the YZ motor runs. That being said the look up tables and base maps of the comp ECU are completely different than the ones in the YZ ECU. The YZ maps are not made for the WR. The WR does not have the sudden tip in (lean state) that the YZ's have. As I said the YZ's fuel system is completely different.

 

To the OP: The WR's stock and comp ECU are very lean from the factory. Yamaha now is telling dealers to bump up the idle CO to 7, still a little lean. You need a FI diagnostic tool to make that change. This does not only make the bike idle cooler but also run smoother and removes the light switch hit off the bottom, its nice smooth hard power now. I like you want the bike a little bit more trackable and not so jerky in the technical stuff. Give my map a try I find that the "coffin corner" on my map has no surprise to it. Keep in mind that it was good before the CO change but now is great with a CO bump of 15. I know that you are looking for the most MPG's that you can get. But if you have opened up the pipe or changed the muffler you will need to bump up the fuel #'s. Just one thing to note is that if you find your bike back firing when you back off or let off the throttle you need to add fuel in that rpm range. A backfire is caused by a lean condition not from too much gas like some people think. 

 

And it would be more of a reverse coffin corner. As not stall but lift is encountered. ;)

 

Good Luck lets us know what you find.

 

There is another, recent, thread that has data to support that a setting of 15-17 is likely to result in a 5% CO reading on a gas sniffer.

 

That's pretty high, IMHO. But, I do not know what the "ramifications" of that much CO are for motor operations. I only know my local air quality rep. would likely frown on it... I understand it's "richer", provides more fuel for idle conditions, and has side benefits of providing valve cooling. Other than that, I'm a blank sheet.

 

I've been told verbally by my stealership service dept that is a "race" setting, that much (setting of 15-17). I note your racing background.

 

I agree that the programming for the Comp. ECU will be different. The lookup tables for the TBs will be different, since the TBs are different. (I'm a SW guy by profession, I know what lookup tables do...).

 

I'm still conducting a "ride and review" of various maps, over in "WR Maps Only" thread here:

 

http://www.thumperta...aps-only/page-2

 

I can say that maps provided by vlxjim have proved to be valuable for a newbie, like me.

 

 

I can also say that I've now had some experience with "low fuel charge / high ignition advancement" maps (the -4 / +2 portion of the low engine power portion of the map, throttle roll-on, 1st column, bottom to top) of the YZ "Driveability" / Yamaha Tech Manual  map, above.

 

That experience was not pleasant for me, I was well out of my comfort zone in my ability to manage the throttle, given a similar map.

 

That experience make me not anxious to try it again any time soon.

 

However, he has made the request, and I will honor it.  Likely when I get back from the dirt cycle training.



  • torkd14

Posted April 28, 2014 - 03:46 PM

#17

I find the Aussie map falls on it's face at high rpms. I'm still in search of a better map.

  • mc1hd

Posted April 28, 2014 - 06:03 PM

#18

Just to be specific which Aussie map are you talking about?   There's more than one.



  • torkd14

Posted April 29, 2014 - 05:50 AM

#19

Just to be specific which Aussie map are you talking about? There's more than one.

The one on this pic

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  • Lumberjack450

Posted April 29, 2014 - 07:30 PM

#20

Personal experience has led me to develop this method for tuning my WR. I have had excellent results:

 

1. Make it haul ass

 

2. Ride it






 
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