'12+ WR450F: Should I install a Heavier flywheel?

Engine Flywheel Weights Yamaha WR450F

61 replies to this topic
  • mebgardner

Posted March 02, 2014 - 01:11 PM

#21

You asked a question and are getting great responses. The problem with writing is it is hard to convey your suggestion in a concise way without coming across a bit aloof. Don't take it personally or as a personal shot at your "man card". I say this as some of your responses are a bit defensive. People willing to spend their time to help a "newer" rider won't take too kindly to being scolded for their delivery method or tone as tone is hard to convey in writing as well.

Take it for what it's worth, off my soapbox :D

Side note, speaking of keeping yourself alive and well, you never mentioned protective gear that you wear. :thinking:

 

Thanks, yes, I know. I personally like the fellow I was scolding, and I knew I was doing it.

 

I did it deliberately because I asked for recommendations other than training.  So, what did I get? A training recommendation.

 

So, I'm rather glad that you noticed.

 

I *am* very grateful for all the help here. Really, I mean it sincerely.  Including his, he has been very kind to me, and patient with me.

 

All of you have been kind, and I am thankful that you, he, and the rest of this crew are alive, well, and here.

 

On to what I wear, then? *Lots* of very expensive gear. Fortunately, I am able to afford the best, and I bought it, and I wear it, all the time. All told, over $1000 worth of gear and clothing when I ride. I feel well protected when I ride off 20 ft. cliffs (true story, by accident not on purpose), and get pinned under the cycle occasionally. I did not have all this gear to begin with, I had to be convinced I needed it.

 

Yup, I need it :)



  • mebgardner

Posted March 02, 2014 - 05:01 PM

#22

You asked a question and are getting great responses. The problem with writing is it is hard to convey your suggestion in a concise way without coming across a bit aloof. Don't take it personally or as a personal shot at your "man card". I say this as some of your responses are a bit defensive. People willing to spend their time to help a "newer" rider won't take too kindly to being scolded for their delivery method or tone as tone is hard to convey in writing as well.

Take it for what it's worth, off my soapbox :D

Side note, speaking of keeping yourself alive and well, you never mentioned protective gear that you wear. :thinking:

 

Kenny:

 

This has weighed on me much more than I would have suspected.

 

You are right, TKMMS was being generous with his time, and attempting to relate something important to me. So, thanks for calling me on this.

 

 

TKMMS, if you read this, if I have offended you, please accept my sincere apologies.  I am truly sorry for being cross with you.

 

Warm Regards,

Bob



  • KennyMc

Posted March 02, 2014 - 05:40 PM

#23

Kenny:

 

This has weighed on me much more than I would have suspected.

 

You are right, TKMMS was being generous with his time, and attempting to relate something important to me. So, thanks for calling me on this.

 

 

TKMMS, if you read this, if I have offended you, please accept my sincere apologies.  I am truly sorry for being cross with you.

 

Warm Regards,

Bob

Oh shiat, don't go and do that, Bill will be even more insufferable now :devil:

 

Hey Bill  :p

 

Here's why I wear protective gear...

http://youtu.be/2mL2sQNi-bw


Edited by KennyMc, March 02, 2014 - 05:46 PM.


  • Krannie McKranface

Posted March 02, 2014 - 07:33 PM

#24

Too much thinking, talking, not enough riding.

 

:snore:  :snore:  :snore:  :snore:  :snore:  :snore:  :snore:  :snore:  :snore:



  • KennyMc

Posted March 03, 2014 - 01:02 AM

#25

Too much thinking, talking, not enough riding.

 

:snore:  :snore:  :snore:  :snore:  :snore:

Well, I have a reason....

 

photo.JPG :smashpc:  :smashpc:  :smashpc:


Edited by KennyMc, March 03, 2014 - 01:04 AM.


  • GP1K

Posted March 03, 2014 - 01:37 PM

#26


But the flywheel idea.  Should I consider installing that?

 

The power delivery seems very abrupt. So much so, that twice now it's darn near thrown me off the back of the cycle.

 

I'm on the bars, focused, not drifting, and paying attention.  I hit a bump, which causes my hand to "blip" open the throttle. The cycle leaps forward(!) and I'm heading off the back, suddenly, and quite unexpectedly.  Once was very, *very* close.  It happened again, and that time I was ready for it.

 

But, it's un-nerving.  I'm like, stop that!

 

Would a heavier flywheel be a good solution for me? Anything else you want to recommend (other than more training, I've got professional training scheduled and on the way...).

 

I also think it's your FI map. I believe in your quest for maximum range, you've sacrificed rideability. As I said in your map thread, the map that gave me the mellowest power delivery also gave me the worst range. So I bought a 3.0 gallon tank, problem solved. I liked the mellow power delivery for the tight single track I ride, and didn't want a more aggressive map. And coming off a 250F, it made the transition much easier IMO. I'd much rather sacrifice range than have my bike feel like a handful to ride. And with a soft map, it's very tractable in the tight stuff, but wind on the throttle and there's still plenty of power.

 

That and I didn't realize you were a newer rider, so all the more reason to tune for rideability, not range. Also wondering if you're riding in too low a gear at times? As in you're in say 2nd gear, when you should be in 3rd. If you're in too low of a gear, you're higher up in the RPM range and the throttle will react much quicker and abruptly. I always try to carry as high of gear as I can on a trail, it's better to be lugging a bit in most situations than screaming the motor.

 

To that end, I actually geared my bike down. I went up 2 teeth in the rear over stock. This may seem counter-intuitive as the throttle will feel more abrupt in the same gear at the same speed as before, but now I can carry 2nd where I used to be in-between 1st and 2nd, and carry 3rd where I used to be in-between 2nd and 3rd. 1st is a granny gear for taking off or some seriously slow, tight technical terrain. These bikes have a lot of torque and will lug down quite a ways and still pull. 

 

So I suggest you put your quest for the best range aside for now, and instead focus on tuning for rideability instead, and install that IMS tank. The 'muddy/slippery surface' map is a good place to start. Crappy mileage, but it will feel soft and manageable on the bottom and not so abrupt.



  • GP1K

Posted March 03, 2014 - 01:50 PM

#27

Only if he is riding slow 1-2nd gear stuff which is why I specified. Otherwise gearing up will be a benefit.

 

I've think it's the total opposite. You really don't want to be in 1st gear if you can help it. Throttle and/or clutch control needs to be very precise. If you gear the bike down, you can be in 2nd where you used to be in first, 3rd where you used to be in 2nd. I ride nothing but tight woods in the PNW, much of that technical single track. I've geared both my bikes down and it helped a bunch. CRF250X and now WR450. Both +2 in the rear, both way better that way. You shouldn't be trying to make your lower gears taller, you should be trying to ride in a higher gear to begin with.

 

The only reason I could ever see to gear up would be for desert riding, dual sport, fire roading etc where the speeds are much higher and tight technical terrain isn't an issue.



  • KennyMc

Posted March 03, 2014 - 02:27 PM

#28

Another option could always be to put back in the throttle stop for the time being. :excuseme:



  • 080

Posted March 03, 2014 - 04:56 PM

#29

I've think it's the total opposite. You really don't want to be in 1st gear if you can help it. Throttle and/or clutch control needs to be very precise. If you gear the bike down, you can be in 2nd where you used to be in first, 3rd where you used to be in 2nd. I ride nothing but tight woods in the PNW, much of that technical single track. I've geared both my bikes down and it helped a bunch. CRF250X and now WR450. Both +2 in the rear, both way better that way. You shouldn't be trying to make your lower gears taller, you should be trying to ride in a higher gear to begin with.

 

The only reason I could ever see to gear up would be for desert riding, dual sport, fire roading etc where the speeds are much higher and tight technical terrain isn't an issue.

 

Raising the gearing was merely a suggestion to tone the bikes torque down a bit to make it more manageable. 1-2nd gear type trails is more of a reference to technical, slower going trails in which raising the gear ratio would be counter productive I agree, I'm not suggesting riding around in 1st gear. IMO 1st gear is the "get you out of the hole" gear and not much more. That said, stock gearing between 1-2nd is to low for my taste and makes the bike a bit much to handle in the tighter stuff. 2nd isn't terrible when going slow but is to short, and 3rd is to tall. Gearing up broadens 2nd gear and makes it much more usable, similar to mx gearing.



  • Navaho6

Posted March 04, 2014 - 08:45 AM

#30

Try the Hard Pack map first.  It's free.  http://www.blackwood...ower-tuner-maps

 

I had suggested a 49T or 48T rear.  Stock is 50T, so nothing too drastic.  I may do the same because I find myself constantly shifting between 2nd and 3rd.  2nd being too short and 3rd too long.  

 

I have a 450EXC.  It came with a 52T, and I had the same issue.  I tried a 50T but found it too sluggish on the bottom.  Put a 51T on and "Voila".  You can get a rear for $40.

 

http://www.outlawrac...1wr99wr031.html



Visit the ThumperTalk Store for the lowest prices on motorcycle / ATV parts and accessories - Guaranteed
  • mebgardner

Posted March 04, 2014 - 11:25 AM

#31

I also think it's your FI map. I believe in your quest for maximum range, you've sacrificed rideability. As I said in your map thread, the map that gave me the mellowest power delivery also gave me the worst range. So I bought a 3.0 gallon tank, problem solved. I liked the mellow power delivery for the tight single track I ride, and didn't want a more aggressive map. And coming off a 250F, it made the transition much easier IMO. I'd much rather sacrifice range than have my bike feel like a handful to ride. And with a soft map, it's very tractable in the tight stuff, but wind on the throttle and there's still plenty of power.

 

That and I didn't realize you were a newer rider, so all the more reason to tune for rideability, not range. Also wondering if you're riding in too low a gear at times? As in you're in say 2nd gear, when you should be in 3rd. If you're in too low of a gear, you're higher up in the RPM range and the throttle will react much quicker and abruptly. I always try to carry as high of gear as I can on a trail, it's better to be lugging a bit in most situations than screaming the motor.

 

To that end, I actually geared my bike down. I went up 2 teeth in the rear over stock. This may seem counter-intuitive as the throttle will feel more abrupt in the same gear at the same speed as before, but now I can carry 2nd where I used to be in-between 1st and 2nd, and carry 3rd where I used to be in-between 2nd and 3rd. 1st is a granny gear for taking off or some seriously slow, tight technical terrain. These bikes have a lot of torque and will lug down quite a ways and still pull. 

 

So I suggest you put your quest for the best range aside for now, and instead focus on tuning for rideability instead, and install that IMS tank. The 'muddy/slippery surface' map is a good place to start. Crappy mileage, but it will feel soft and manageable on the bottom and not so abrupt.

 

I agree. I'm putting aside my FI map development "for range", for now. I've got the new tank on, and the "Vlxjim" map perogrammed in. I'll try it this weekend...

 

I'm gonna take these recommendations, not too many at once.



  • mebgardner

Posted March 04, 2014 - 11:27 AM

#32

Try the Hard Pack map first.  It's free.  http://www.blackwood...ower-tuner-maps

 

I had suggested a 49T or 48T rear.  Stock is 50T, so nothing too drastic.  I may do the same because I find myself constantly shifting between 2nd and 3rd.  2nd being too short and 3rd too long.  

 

I have a 450EXC.  It came with a 52T, and I had the same issue.  I tried a 50T but found it too sluggish on the bottom.  Put a 51T on and "Voila".  You can get a rear for $40.

 

http://www.outlawrac...1wr99wr031.html

 

Thats a good price, and I'm assuming you like their product.

 

Thanks!


Another option could always be to put back in the throttle stop for the time being. :excuseme:

 

Oh No, I could Not Possibly do *That*. Not Happening.



  • mebgardner

Posted March 04, 2014 - 11:35 AM

#33

So, I think I'll try the recommendations in this order:

 

1) New IMS tank / New "Softer FI map.

2) Throttle cams, 400 series (on the way now).

3) Re-Gear rear to ? (choices: 48/49/50/51/52/?). (*Lots* of varying opinions on this one, dunno what to make of it).

4) More Training (on the way, waiting for appointed time).

 

Not sure of:

Loosen throttle cables / introduce more slack.

 

Discaded ideas:

Rekluse clutch

Heavier Flywheel.

Re-insert OEM Throttle Stop.

 

I think thats it, all of them.  Am I missing anything?

 

I thank you all for your patience with me.


Edited by mebgardner, March 04, 2014 - 11:42 AM.


  • GP1K

Posted March 04, 2014 - 12:58 PM

#34

IMO more slack in the throttle cable will only make things worse, not better. You just get slop and delay, then the same thing still happens once the throttle actually catches. Personally I can't stand any slack in my throttle cables always set them so there's just a whisker of free play. I cannot fathom how a sloppy throttle adjustment can be anything but bad.

 

As for gearing, it really depends on how/where you ride. The stock gearing is pretty good all-around, IMO. I went down slightly as I ride a lot of tight trails and single track, rarely ever get into 5th gear, and wanted to be able to carry a gear higher on trails. If you ride more open terrain, the stock gearing may be fine for you. I think gear selection may be more important here than final drive ratios. How high of RPM do you usually ride? Unless you're screaming around a track or something like that, you're better off lugging it a bit than screaming it. The suspension works better that way as well.



  • mebgardner

Posted March 04, 2014 - 04:19 PM

#35

IMO more slack in the throttle cable will only make things worse, not better. You just get slop and delay, then the same thing still happens once the throttle actually catches. Personally I can't stand any slack in my throttle cables always set them so there's just a whisker of free play. I cannot fathom how a sloppy throttle adjustment can be anything but bad.

 

As for gearing, it really depends on how/where you ride. The stock gearing is pretty good all-around, IMO. I went down slightly as I ride a lot of tight trails and single track, rarely ever get into 5th gear, and wanted to be able to carry a gear higher on trails. If you ride more open terrain, the stock gearing may be fine for you. I think gear selection may be more important here than final drive ratios. How high of RPM do you usually ride? Unless you're screaming around a track or something like that, you're better off lugging it a bit than screaming it. The suspension works better that way as well.

 

I dont have a tach, except for the diagnostics tools. I'm not at the upper range of the throttle much when I'm in the canyons. Then, 2nd or 3rd works good. Occasionally I'm on phone line trails getting to the next canyon over. Then, speeds are up in 4th to 5th when I can hold my nerve to hit it, and hope I dont encounter something that will throw me off.

 

I get your point, and I agree with you and the others about this aspect: I'm better off lugging it, and, a higher gear is better than a lower gear, and,  precise clutch control (sans Rekluse) is important.  I have to be ready and willing to get the right gear, and possibly feather it, when needed.  Yup to all the above.

 

I think I'll stick with stock sprockets for awhile, and read some more...



  • Corkster

Posted March 04, 2014 - 06:45 PM

#36

So, I think I'll try the recommendations in this order:

 

1) New IMS tank / New "Softer FI map.

2) Throttle cams, 400 series (on the way now).

3) Re-Gear rear to ? (choices: 48/49/50/51/52/?). (*Lots* of varying opinions on this one, dunno what to make of it).

4) More Training (on the way, waiting for appointed time).

 

Not sure of:

Loosen throttle cables / introduce more slack.

 

Discaded ideas:

Rekluse clutch

Heavier Flywheel.

Re-insert OEM Throttle Stop.

 

I think thats it, all of them.  Am I missing anything?

 

I thank you all for your patience with me.

I would start with the throttle cam.  It is cheap, adjustable and reversible.  It completely worked for me.  This way you are not neutering the bike's power when you need/want it, just making it easier to control at low speeds in low gear when it has so much hit. Taking the hit out of the engine via timing means you no longer have the response in 4th and 5th gear and also the engine is not operating at full efficiency.  With the cam you decide when you want the hit.



  • 080

Posted March 04, 2014 - 07:30 PM

#37

So, I think I'll try the recommendations in this order:

 

1) New IMS tank / New "Softer FI map.

2) Throttle cams, 400 series (on the way now).

3) Re-Gear rear to ? (choices: 48/49/50/51/52/?). (*Lots* of varying opinions on this one, dunno what to make of it).

4) More Training (on the way, waiting for appointed time).

 

 

The slack in the throttle is an old trick allowing a little play before actually engaging. This will help the bike not launch forward as bad if you happen to accidently grab a little by mistake. Either way, if your getting the throttle cam you will achieve the same thing with the bonus of being able to adjust the entire throttle range a little. Changing the countershaft sprocket is just a cheaper way of narrowing down the gearing that will work for what you ride. Trying different rear sprockets can get costly if you end up not liking them "or" just try changing the front sprocket. If its where you want to be "great" if not it only cost $15-$20 to find out (1 up front = 3 1/2 on the back). I put a 14 up front on mine and haven't rode anything yet 1st gear wouldn't crawl out of. I think your on the right track with using a softer map or at least softer on the low end. Don't count the auto clutches out, they are very helpful or the pro's wouldn't be using them. That said, I wouldn't suggest one until you have the manual one nailed down or you could end up burning the auto clutch up. 



  • mebgardner

Posted March 05, 2014 - 06:35 AM

#38

I would start with the throttle cam.  It is cheap, adjustable and reversible.  It completely worked for me.  This way you are not neutering the bike's power when you need/want it, just making it easier to control at low speeds in low gear when it has so much hit. Taking the hit out of the engine via timing means you no longer have the response in 4th and 5th gear and also the engine is not operating at full efficiency.  With the cam you decide when you want the hit.

 

I have another motive for wanting to install this device.  I still want that fuel range! I'll live with the "soft" FI map because my skills are not up to the challenge of managing the results of a lean FI map at the "low end" of that map. But, I dont like having to live with the poor fuel range that is part of the compromise of a "soft" map. Yes, I have the bigger tank now. I want it all!

 

So, if the throttle cam device "patches" my skills at the low end, I may make the switch back to the leaner maps and give it another go at increasing range. 

 

We'll see, one thing at a time, right?



  • mebgardner

Posted March 05, 2014 - 06:41 AM

#39

The slack in the throttle is an old trick allowing a little play before actually engaging. This will help the bike not launch forward as bad if you happen to accidently grab a little by mistake. Either way, if your getting the throttle cam you will achieve the same thing with the bonus of being able to adjust the entire throttle range a little. Changing the countershaft sprocket is just a cheaper way of narrowing down the gearing that will work for what you ride. Trying different rear sprockets can get costly if you end up not liking them "or" just try changing the front sprocket. If its where you want to be "great" if not it only cost $15-$20 to find out (1 up front = 3 1/2 on the back). I put a 14 up front on mine and haven't rode anything yet 1st gear wouldn't crawl out of. I think your on the right track with using a softer map or at least softer on the low end. Don't count the auto clutches out, they are very helpful or the pro's wouldn't be using them. That said, I wouldn't suggest one until you have the manual one nailed down or you could end up burning the auto clutch up. 

 

I'm not in a hurry to get that clutch device. At $900 for the latest / greatest Core 3.0 EXP, it's very pricey. I had a fellow offer me a used Core 2.0 Non-EXP, and then he described his experience with it, why he was selling it.

 

Apparently, stalling with that device mounted allows the cycle to roll backwards, downhill, when the engine stalls on a hillside. Without warning. Too late for braking...  The clutch essentially thinks the system is in "neutral" at that time.

 

People swear by them when they love them.  This guy did not like that particular aspect of living with the Rekluse.  When I read that, and considered his $$$ learning "experience", well, I'm not in a hurry...


Edited by mebgardner, March 05, 2014 - 06:42 AM.


  • mc1hd

Posted March 05, 2014 - 12:00 PM

#40

Your referring to the Core Exp 2.0 that I have listed for sale in the classifieds, yes it is the full boat model that comes with everything pluss extra springs that were ordered additional as I had explained too you.  There not for everyone, myself included.  Shameless plug I guess.







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