Is your Clutch a Drag? Can't find Neutral?



55 replies to this topic
  • grayracer513

Posted February 11, 2014 - 04:22 PM

#41

Thank you for posting that explanation! Helped a lot.

One question though, by dropping the washer in the spring, would it ever bind up?

 

Not if the washer is the right size for the bolt threads (M6) and drops through the spring.

 

That was not posted for you. Its for those that read this tread an get confused by the miss information. This will help make it more clear I hope.

 

It would help more if it was clear that the bolts are shouldered and that the right washer is one that the bolt thread fits through, but the shoulder does not.  



  • Krannie McKranface

Posted February 11, 2014 - 05:11 PM

#42

That was not posted for you. Its for those that read this tread an get confused by the miss information. This will help make it more clear I hope.

 

Who is Miss Information? Is she hot?

 

 

 

*** Please read the first post in this thread, now revised, for another explanation without confusion.***

 

 

 

For those that don't understand here is a graphic. You need to make sure that the washer is inside the coils of the springs acting like a spacer. This will put less compression (preload) on springs giving less compression to the clutch plates. The opposite would be installing a washer that fits over the threaded boss down at the bottom preloading the springs giving you more compression and a tighter clutch. If you use a washer the same size as the bolt it will provide no change in compression and just add weight to the clutch assembly.

 

12467783404_9b77650d52_o.jpg

 

 

Nice graphic


Edited by TheKoolAidMadeMeSick, February 11, 2014 - 05:16 PM.


  • vlxjim

Posted February 11, 2014 - 09:31 PM

#43

Thanks



  • RHeritage

Posted February 14, 2014 - 02:11 PM

#44

Koolaid,

 

Thanks for the tip, I had the same issue with dragging clutch and hard neutrals, mod done today, problem resolved.

 

Great Forum!!!!!

 

Rich



  • stevethe

Posted February 25, 2014 - 04:15 PM

#45

My clutch is still a drag even with the washer. Wondering if two washers would be the trick. Then a possible washer or two over the spring to stiffen it back up ?



  • Krannie McKranface

Posted February 25, 2014 - 05:36 PM

#46

My clutch is still a drag even with the washer. Wondering if two washers would be the trick. Then a possible washer or two over the spring to stiffen it back up ?

 

If you add another washer, the clutch will probably slip.

I would inspect your plates and fibers.



  • grayracer513

Posted February 26, 2014 - 07:52 AM

#47

My clutch is still a drag even with the washer. Wondering if two washers would be the trick. Then a possible washer or two over the spring to stiffen it back up ?

 

So, shim the bolt to take some preload off the spring and then add a shim to put the preload back?  Interesting concept.

 

Notice that kool-aid removed his springs and used a washer that ended up shimming bot the bolt and the shim, producing a zero net change, and yet he said it worked.  If so, then I'd be willing to bet that a fresh set of springs would have accomplished the same thing without the washers.  If the springs become too uneven, and all the weak ones end up on the same side of the pressure plate, the plate will tilt as it lifts, and the clutch will drag.

 

Faulty plates, baskets, and bosses are far more common causes of clutch drag.



  • stevethe

Posted February 26, 2014 - 08:23 AM

#48

So, shim the bolt to take some preload off the spring and then add a shim to put the preload back?  Interesting concept.

 

Notice that kool-aid removed his springs and used a washer that ended up shimming bot the bolt and the shim, producing a zero net change, and yet he said it worked.  If so, then I'd be willing to bet that a fresh set of springs would have accomplished the same thing without the washers.  If the springs become too uneven, and all the weak ones end up on the same side of the pressure plate, the plate will tilt as it lifts, and the clutch will drag.

 

Faulty plates, baskets, and bosses are far more common causes of clutch drag.

 

Yes and how about a possible two washers inside the spring then YZ springs which are a little stiffer and one washer or none over the spring ?

I would like the clutch to disengage better to be able to use the electric start in gear.

I have been riding the bike since 07 on the original clutch. It's been on a steady diet of Mobil 1 15-50 car oil with no clutch slipping since new. But clutch dragging it's got it. Don't they all drag when started in gear ?

My wr since new has always had more clutch drag then the Honda's I've owned.


Edited by stevethe, February 26, 2014 - 08:34 AM.


Visit the ThumperTalk Store for the lowest prices on motorcycle / ATV parts and accessories - Guaranteed
  • grayracer513

Posted February 26, 2014 - 09:53 AM

#49

As I said earlier, the "79 cent fix" worked at one time (I doubt it still does) on some earlier YZ250F models because when the clutch stack was new (particularly when using some aftermarket plates that tend to be thicker than spec until used a while), the springs were at or very near coil bound at full lift.  I have no information telling me this was ever a problem with the WR450.

 

Koolaid most likely didn't bother to replace each spring in the self same hole it came up out of, but he might have.  If not, the "cure" that was effected was probably a simple matter of shuffling the springs around into an arrangement that was more evenly balanced. 

 

As far as YZ springs go, most YZ450's  will drag enough that it makes starting in gear difficult if not outright impossible, but they should not, and normally don't creep in gear.  Here's something that I've done that seems to have made a real difference.  I ordered a clutch plate set for my '06 from one of my sponsors who is not an engine guy.  His parts supplier pointed out that the clutch kits Yamaha offers are cheaper than just the friction plates alone, and talked him into buying one.  There were a couple of things wrong with that.  I have a Rekluse Z-Start Pro clutch, so I have to use their steel plates, which I had already bought from Rekluse, so I had no use for the steels or the springs in the kit to start with, only the friction plates.  The '06 uses 9 friction plates, while all the later ones for which full kits are made use 8, but since the Rekluse uses 8 in all models, that didn't matter either.  The real "problem" was that the kit was for an '09 YFZ450R (quad), not for a YZ450F, and the plate part numbers were different.  

 

A YZ450F uses 5TA-16321-00-00 plates, all 9 (or 8 in my case).  The kit had two of those, but the other 6 were 5VY-16321-00-00.  I ran the part number and found out these plates are the ones used in an R1.  My first concern with these was obviously not whether they could handle the power, but that they were very slightly thicker, and when stacked up, the plate clearance when disengaged was a little close.  Nevertheless, the clutch releases a lot more cleanly than the OEM set up, or than the previous Rekluse setup, either one, and I can now usually start it in gear unless it's heated up to the high end of normal. 

 

You might want to try a set of those, using the 5TA plates on the ends where they run against aluminum, and the 5VY plates in between.  See what happens.  The kit would give you quad clutch springs, which you may not like, but clutch springs are $23 a set, so it's not a real big deal.   The plates have been working very well for me for 6-8 months now.



  • Krannie McKranface

Posted February 26, 2014 - 11:49 AM

#50

Grayracer, your demeanor sucks.

 

I measured all the springs for height and they were all within 1.5 mm of each other.

The measurement was done with the springs in place, no bolts, off the deck of the clutch hub cover.

 

I did not measure the tension/ft/lb per spring, which is only part of the 'balancing' of the springs that would matter, and which you did not mention.



  • peaceofwork

Posted February 26, 2014 - 07:08 PM

#51

if it works it works what other 79 cent cures are likely to do as well ? shuffle the springs is free I guess...



  • stevethe

Posted February 27, 2014 - 06:43 AM

#52

As I said earlier, the "79 cent fix" worked at one time (I doubt it still does) on some earlier YZ250F models because when the clutch stack was new (particularly when using some aftermarket plates that tend to be thicker than spec until used a while), the springs were at or very near coil bound at full lift.  I have no information telling me this was ever a problem with the WR450.

 

Koolaid most likely didn't bother to replace each spring in the self same hole it came up out of, but he might have.  If not, the "cure" that was effected was probably a simple matter of shuffling the springs around into an arrangement that was more evenly balanced. 

 

As far as YZ springs go, most YZ450's  will drag enough that it makes starting in gear difficult if not outright impossible, but they should not, and normally don't creep in gear.  Here's something that I've done that seems to have made a real difference.  I ordered a clutch plate set for my '06 from one of my sponsors who is not an engine guy.  His parts supplier pointed out that the clutch kits Yamaha offers are cheaper than just the friction plates alone, and talked him into buying one.  There were a couple of things wrong with that.  I have a Rekluse Z-Start Pro clutch, so I have to use their steel plates, which I had already bought from Rekluse, so I had no use for the steels or the springs in the kit to start with, only the friction plates.  The '06 uses 9 friction plates, while all the later ones for which full kits are made use 8, but since the Rekluse uses 8 in all models, that didn't matter either.  The real "problem" was that the kit was for an '09 YFZ450R (quad), not for a YZ450F, and the plate part numbers were different.  

 

A YZ450F uses 5TA-16321-00-00 plates, all 9 (or 8 in my case).  The kit had two of those, but the other 6 were 5VY-16321-00-00.  I ran the part number and found out these plates are the ones used in an R1.  My first concern with these was obviously not whether they could handle the power, but that they were very slightly thicker, and when stacked up, the plate clearance when disengaged was a little close.  Nevertheless, the clutch releases a lot more cleanly than the OEM set up, or than the previous Rekluse setup, either one, and I can now usually start it in gear unless it's heated up to the high end of normal. 

 

You might want to try a set of those, using the 5TA plates on the ends where they run against aluminum, and the 5VY plates in between.  See what happens.  The kit would give you quad clutch springs, which you may not like, but clutch springs are $23 a set, so it's not a real big deal.   The plates have been working very well for me for 6-8 months now.

 

Thanks for your posting on the clutch plates.



  • markcjr

Posted March 11, 2014 - 03:01 PM

#53

Slip 6 mm (M6) washers over the bolts. Make sure they fit inside the springs. MAKE SURE the thickness of the washers is equal! If one is thicker it will warp the pressure plate and cause the same problem you're trying to fix! Measure the washers with a micrometer or digital calipers. The thickness should be approximately 0.06 inches.


So I went to the hardware store and looked at the m6 washers they had.  I didn't have a micrometer with me, and they said they didn't have one I could use, but using the ruler they had there they look to be about 1mm.  Is that a problem?

 



  • markcjr

Posted March 16, 2014 - 03:29 PM

#54

Did it to my yz400f.   Gears are notchier and easier to find neutral.   The stainless steel washers were a little thinner than the other ones (aluminum?).

Took about 5-10 minutes.  Already had the oil drained to change my oil.  Just layed the bike on its side with the handlebar on a piece of firewood.

Thanks for the mod!



  • stevethe

Posted August 08, 2014 - 06:13 AM

#55

In case people actually read this stuff. (They should) My clutch drag issue which I think was way worse than others was a couple or few warped metal plates. Thread is here http://www.thumperta...-clutch-plates/

 

I should also mention the Hinson seems to have stiffer springs. So we'll see how the left hand gets used to it.



  • Krannie McKranface

Posted August 08, 2014 - 06:55 AM

#56

I recently put in (3) 250 springs, lubed the cable, and what made the biggest difference of all, was to tighten up and clean/lube the perch-to-lever point.

I even installed a nylon washer to take up the slack in the perch/lever.

 

 

LIKE BUDDAH






 
x

Join Our Community!

Even if you don't want to post, registered members get access to tools that make finding & following the good stuff easier.

If you enjoyed reading about "" here in the ThumperTalk archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join ThumperTalk today!

The views and opinions expressed on this page are strictly those of the author, and have not been reviewed or approved by ThumperTalk.