Another hard starting WR



16 replies to this topic
  • 5TJL

Posted January 27, 2014 - 08:28 PM

#1

I just got a used 09 WR . Bike was having issues running on idle and the cylinder had been taken off and put back together reusing the same gaskets so I went ahead and bought the GYTR AIS removal kit and OEM gasket set for the top end.   Took the bike apart, got rid of the AIS, installed GYTR needle + jets, torqued everything to spec, replaced spark plug with a new one, and oiled and installed a new air filter.  Naive me thought I would be left over with a refreshed bike after all this work :smirk:

Before all this work, the bike would start after about 40-50 kicks and run well as long as I was on the throttle (a-la 2 stroke).  Had the infamous bog but nothing too bad.   If I coasted to a stop, I would have issues keeping the bike running without working the throttle.    After all the work I can barely start the bike and again it will only run from half throttle on (no more bog after o-ring mod on the AP cam).

 

Here are important details about the bike:

 

2009 WR450F

FMF Powercore muffler, stock header.
Fresh air filter with motul spray on filter oil.
Orignal battery.  Kickstart only but battery does power the speedo and rear light.

AIS Removal kit installed with all the included jets and needles.
O-ring mod
Bike now only likes to start if I hold in the Hot Start lever, even if the bike is totally cold.

AP Squirt is .56 seconds long and does not hit the slide.  It shoots nice and strong and hits the middle intake valve with impressive accuracy :thumbsup:
Valve clearances are (when looking at the bike from cam chain side):

EX .20mm EX .20mm 
IN .11mm IN .07mm IN .07mm

Side question, should I buy the $70 shim kit to fix those clearances immediately or can it wait a bit?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.   I have attached a picture of my cams from both sides to confirm correct installation.  Picture is taken with the stator indicator on the TDC "I"
IMG_20140127_220719.jpg IMG_20140127_220819.jpg


Edited by 5TJL, January 27, 2014 - 08:31 PM.


  • Krannie McKranface

Posted January 27, 2014 - 09:09 PM

#2

Something is rich (blocked air passage)

 

You need to pull the carb and:

 

clean and lube the hot start and choke plunger and cavities and lube the cables

replace the main air jet with a fresh one

replace the pilot with a fresh one and CLEAR THE PASSAGE above the pilot with carb cleaner and fishing line

 

You did not mention what jets you now have. This is essential, to know what is in there. 

 

Also, you starting procedure should be choke, not throttle, then start with no throttle

 

Estart not working? 

 

Shim your valves now. 

You might even have a leaky intake valve. 


Edited by TheKoolAidMadeMeSick, January 27, 2014 - 09:10 PM.


  • 5TJL

Posted January 27, 2014 - 09:19 PM

#3

I will pull the carb again tomorrow morning and get the numbers on all the jets.  The jets included in the GYTR kit seemed a little off.   While at it I will also do another (more thorough) carb cleaning. I did not do the fishing line through the passage last time :blush:
 
E start works but battery is nearly dead.  I am getting another one this week.

Thank you for your answer.
 



  • 5TJL

Posted January 28, 2014 - 05:35 AM

#4

Taking the carb out several times has made me pretty proficient at the task.   Takes me 20 mins or less now :) 

I plan on riding from 0 ft MSL to about 4500 ft MSL.   An adjustable fuel screw is in my planned purchases (something like this one: http://www.rockymoun...l-Screw)?v=8256 )

All jets and the needle are new with exception to the starter jet and main (will get a new one).

 

Jets are out:

Pilot: 50
Pilot air: 110

Main: 180
Starter: 65

Leak: 45

Needle: GDDTR with clip on the 4th position

I must make a confession :blush:  main jet was loose in the bowl and not screwed into the emulsion tube :doh:


Edited by 5TJL, January 28, 2014 - 06:03 AM.


  • GuyGraham

Posted January 28, 2014 - 11:28 AM

#5

180 main is rather big...most run in the 160's



  • Krannie McKranface

Posted January 28, 2014 - 12:43 PM

#6

Taking the carb out several times has made me pretty proficient at the task.   Takes me 20 mins or less now :) 

I plan on riding from 0 ft MSL to about 4500 ft MSL.   An adjustable fuel screw is in my planned purchases (something like this one: http://www.rockymoun...l-Screw)?v=8256 )

All jets and the needle are new with exception to the starter jet and main (will get a new one).

 

Jets are out:

Pilot: 50
Pilot air: 110

Main: 180
Starter: 65

Leak: 45

Needle: GDDTR with clip on the 4th position

I must make a confession :blush:  main jet was loose in the bowl and not screwed into the emulsion tube :doh:

yeah, this jetting is way off, especially for a climate (wet) like yours



  • 5TJL

Posted January 28, 2014 - 02:42 PM

#7

I am buying a shim kit, the R&D "flex-jet" mixture screw and the following jets:
 

Pilot jet: 45

Main Jet: 162 165 168


Unfortunately Rocky Mountain does not have the other types of jets.   How do this sound as a stop gap?



  • RockerYZWR

Posted January 28, 2014 - 03:04 PM

#8

Go here and buy the genuine Keihin stuff:

http://www.jetsrus.c...F_2003-2009.htm

 

The Pro X stuff that RMATV sells is not great quality - you can tell a difference just holding them side by side - and I removed one that the previous owner of my bike had in there that broke in half on its way out. 

 

Definitely check out the stickies in this forum to read all the tuning tips for this carb, as well as to see what many others are running for their set-ups.  It'll save you from having to ask a lot of questions that have already been answered before.



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  • Krannie McKranface

Posted January 28, 2014 - 03:13 PM

#9

I am buying a shim kit, the R&D "flex-jet" mixture screw and the following jets:
 

Pilot jet: 45

Main Jet: 162 165 168


Unfortunately Rocky Mountain does not have the other types of jets.   How do this sound as a stop gap?

There ya go

165 should be fine for now

 

Get a NCVS needle too (try it under Honda CRF450 when looking) and a fresh slide plate seal http://www.crfsonly....roducts_id/3687



  • 5TJL

Posted January 28, 2014 - 03:31 PM

#10

Thank you for your help guys!

Rocker, I didn't realize Pro X was not just a model or something from Keihin.   I plant to buy a small collection of original jets at jetsrus but since I am overseas I usually have to wait for a riding buddy or myself going to the states to order stuff.   Luck has it one of my pals is coming on friday so I was able to get an order from Rocky Mountain in time.    Bike is a bit temperamental right now but I know she is a keeper.

TheKoolAidMadeMeSick,  thanks for the link. We are on the same wavelength.  When I disassembled the carb in the morning I was thinking about the same thing but when I looked for the replacements I was only getting plate + seal kits.  I will get that and the needle in the next month or two.     Good luck with the starter!



  • 5TJL

Posted February 11, 2014 - 07:42 PM

#11

Update time:
 

I installed the 162 Main jet, 45 Pilot jet, shimmed my valves (since I got the Hot Cams kit, they come in .05 mm increments so my intake ended up at .16mm .17mm .17mm, exhaust is right at top end of spec [.25mm]), and installed the adjustable fuel screw.    Bike runs well* and starts easier**, however, I am still having issues with the idle.
 

*Bike runs like before where I have to be riding hard and keeping revs up.  Once I drop the revs (e.g. making a slow U-turn) bike will bog down and die unless I can save it with some luck on playing around with the throttle.

 

**This is relative.  Easier than before but it is still 30-50 kicks to get it running.  I might have it start up and it will idle for a second or two and then turn off.   If I try to get RPM's up to warm the bike up, it will usually stop as soon as I put my hand on the throttle. Playing around with the fuel screw does not really show any improvement/detriment.  I think I have to sort the main problem first before I can work on fine tuning.

 

Tomorrow I will pull the carb out for the 7th time to clean it again (I used thin wire leader to clean the pilot hole and lots of carb cleaner.  will try again), check the hot start, and gap the plug (foolishly I never checked the gap.  I bought a new plug and for some reason just expected it to be OK).

 

With all this, I am now thinking about my Pilot Air jet.  I have a 110 in there because that is what came with the GYTR kit I believe.  When I installed it I just installed it all the way.  Does backing it out affect the fuel-air circuit in any way?



  • RMK800

Posted February 11, 2014 - 10:51 PM

#12

My buddy put in a cheap aluminum fuel screw and had issues with starting and idle. I would put the stock back in to see if it would make a difference or get a Merge racing brass fuel screw. Definitely worth the extra cost.

  • miweber929

Posted February 12, 2014 - 05:05 AM

#13

Stupid question, but have you simply adjusted the idle to a higher rpm? If the idle is set too low, you could have pretty much all the symptoms mentioned which on a single cylinder bike idle is higher than a lot of people are used to.

Just a thought.

You are checking in the right areas, but next time you go into the carb clean EVERYTHING including all passageways.

Mike

  • 5TJL

Posted February 12, 2014 - 06:27 AM

#14

Adjusting idle to 3400 RPM gives me steady idle and bike wont turn off  by itself.  If I get it down to 1900 RPM, bike will stall after a little bit. 

I have the bike where I have an air compressor so I will add that to my cleaning procedure.  I also printed out the fiche for the FCR to follow every passage way with air and carb cleaner.



  • Krannie McKranface

Posted February 12, 2014 - 06:40 AM

#15

The hard starting and stalling are inter-related. 

 

Use soft wire or fishing line and REAL carb cleaner in the passage above the pilot jet.

Test your apump to make sure the nozzle is actually squirting, and not dribbling. If it's dribbling, it will never idle after a 'blip'.

Make sure you use a BRASS fuel screw, not alloy. R&D is the most practical, as you will need to set the pilot circuit more often than you think.

When you lift up the subframe to check the apump squirt quality, remember to remove the air jet and clean it out. They get clogged, especially if you use grease to assist in re-installing the air boots.

Once you get it to idle, properly adjust the fuel screw, starting at 1 turn out and the lowest possible idle.


Edited by TheKoolAidMadeMeSick, February 12, 2014 - 06:41 AM.


  • 5TJL

Posted March 07, 2014 - 09:06 AM

#16

Final update for people who might land on this thread in the search:

 

Issue is resolved.  Bike idles well and starts easy now.   Culprit? The coil was bad.   It was giving off too weak of a spark to start or idle the engine and just enough to keep it running in the mid to top rev range.   I swapped in a new coil and it started right up.

Sorry for wasting your time running around all those other issues without first going throught the whole bike (electrical system is not my forte).  Thank you guys for your help!

I will say this, I am glad I troubleshooted all those other issues.  If I had just swapped the coil from the getgo, my tight valves and bad jetting would've given me issues down the road.  After tearing the bike down 6-7 times I now have carb removal down to 7 mins and know the bike inside and out.


Gotta go...  I wanna ride!



  • RockerYZWR

Posted March 08, 2014 - 08:46 AM

#17

7 minutes...you must look like a Muppet going through a sock drawer.

Seriously, though, that's great news and I'm sure a huge relief. Go ride!




 
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