WR450F Race Bike


78 replies to this topic
  • Monk

Posted January 15, 2014 - 09:09 AM

#41

In AMA Sportsman Desert racing, the "red bar" is "Expert", not pro. "Pro" is professional, and you have to have achieved Expert status as a sportsman racer to apply for a pro card. Certain races, like many of the National H&H runs, are Pro-Am races in which both Sportsman and Pro riders compete on a even basis.

Current AMA rules, which D37 and all others must comply with, stipulate that one may advance or demote himself at will, if he feels he is more suited to a class up or down from where he is currently listed. He may also be demoted by his class steward if he posts poor results over time.


Pretty much like other sanctions too....

But I have never understood why someone would go back into a slower class if they were fast to begin with. You will always have sandbaggers though....

  • Navaho6

Posted January 15, 2014 - 09:16 AM

#42

And you're surprised it didn't perform up to your expectations. 

 

The Z-Start Pro would have addressed your complaints quite well.  One finger clutch override, better engagement performance. 

 

 Not suprised at all.   I knew about the hard clutch pull before I bought it.  I don't know what you mean by "better engagement performace".  I have no issues with clutch engagement on a manual clutch.  If overheating or slippage was a problem, then the Rekluse would be a good fix but I don't have those issues.  I can modulate the torque precisely how I want to and with more control than any autoclutch can. 

 

The EXP 2.0 wouldn't eliminate the engine braking all the way when off the throttle, similar to pulling in the lever. I'm sharing my experience.  The lesson learned is that the more expensive model is the only way to go, if you want to be faster, not slower. 

You don't have this issue on 2-strokes.  I rode one with the cheaper Rekluse and there were no engine braking issues.  It only happens on the 4-stroke.  Plus, on the 2-stroke the EXP 2.0 also improves traction by slipping the clutch automatically.  

 

For racing, I would have the Z-start Pro or the Core EXP (just came out with a new 3.0 version).  For play riding, the occasional stall is not bothersome enough to spend just under $1k for an anti-stall device.


Edited by Navaho6, January 15, 2014 - 09:27 AM.


  • grayracer513

Posted January 15, 2014 - 09:50 AM

#43

I can modulate the torque ... with more control than any autoclutch can. 

 

You don't have this issue on 2-strokes.  I rode one with the cheaper Rekluse and there were no engine braking issues.  It only happens on the 4-stroke.  Plus, on the 2-stroke the EXP 2.0 also improves traction by slipping the clutch automatically.  

 

For racing, I would have the Z-start Pro or the Core EXP (just came out with a new 3.0 version).  For play riding, the occasional stall is not bothersome enough to spend just under $1k for an anti-stall device.

 

In reverse order;

 

The ZSP doesn't cost just under &1k.

 

The Rekluse does exactly the same thing to improve traction on a 4T.

 

The Rekluse was never intended to reduce engine braking (in fact, it was designed to retain it.  if you wanted to get rid of or reduce engine braking, you need a "back-torque limiting" clutch, like the Hinson BTL).  Besides, engine braking is one of the most endearing features about 4-strokes.

 

And I'm here to tell you flat out that you can't manage the clutch as precisely as the Rekluse does.



  • Navaho6

Posted January 15, 2014 - 07:42 PM

#44

grayracer, I was referring to the upgrade to the Core Exp with respect to cost.  Total investment would have been about $900 for me.  Too much for an anti-stall device, which is the only function it would have had for me.    And yes, the Rekluse improves traction but at the expense of torque.  Traction wasn't an issue either.  The extra slippage of the  A-clutch did help one time during a very muddy ride that I didn't enjoy.

 

Agree with you on engine braking.  If you like engine braking, then you will like the Rekluse.   I don't.  It does not work with my style of riding because it upsets the way the bike handles in the corners, and kills my corner speed.  I pull in the clutch and coast into the corners then feather the clutch and throttle hard coming out, much the same as riding a two-stroke. 

 

You're right about the smoothness and consistency of the Rekluse operation.  I can't operate the clutch perfectly all the time but I can manage it well enough 98% of the time. 

 

The autoclutch has a mind of it's own and demands that you be in the right gear in order to get full torque to the back wheel.  If your in 3rd when you need to be in 2nd, the Rekluse will give you a big dose of slippage.  With a manual clutch, I get better torque when I want it and need it, and I can shut it off instantly when I need to stop my momentum in a hurry.  

 

I used the Rekluse for 6 months, discovered it's shortcomings.  Got rid of it and don't miss it.   If you often have problems with stalling or arm pump, you'll absolutely love the Rekluse and praise it often.  If you're a serious racer and stalling from fatigue/arm pump is an issue, you'll love the Rekluse as well.   If you're not in either category, you can save your money and be satisfied without it.


Edited by Navaho6, January 15, 2014 - 08:07 PM.


  • grayracer513

Posted January 16, 2014 - 08:08 AM

#45

Agree with you on engine braking.  If you like engine braking, then you will like the Rekluse.   I don't.  It does not work with my style of riding because it upsets the way the bike handles in the corners, and kills my corner speed.  I pull in the clutch and coast into the corners then feather the clutch and throttle hard coming out, much the same as riding a two-stroke.

 
And there is no reason you can't do that with the Rekluse. There's also no reason you can't run a little higher idle speed or roll the throttle back open a bit to reduce the braking effect, but engine braking is far more consistent then using the rear brake, and it won't lock the wheel. Learn to use it; it's a good thing.
 

And yes, the Rekluse improves traction but at the expense of torque...

The autoclutch has a mind of it's own and demands that you be in the right gear in order to get full torque to the back wheel.  If your in 3rd when you need to be in 2nd, the Rekluse will give you a big dose of slippage.  With a manual clutch, I get better torque when I want it and need it, and I can shut it off instantly when I need to stop my momentum in a hurry.


You have to bear in mind that I spent several decades riding bikes without auto clutches, most of them big four-strokes, and the statement above makes no sense to me. The Rekluse, if set up correctly, will be as solidly locked as the original manual clutch is at over 3000-3500 RPM. If you're in third gear running at that engine speed, you won't get much torque delivered to the rear wheel with a manual clutch either. The difference is that with the Rekluse, if it's below the release speed, will allow the engine to speed up, which will cause the clutch to clamp harder. To "shut it off in a hurry", you just drop the throttle. The Rekluse, in fact, will allow you to get away with a gear higher than you should be running in just about any low speed situation, and one of the common errors people make while they are learning to use the thing is that they forget to downshift more often than they did.

A Rekluse has no mind of its own, either. They are as stupid as any other mechanical device. If the engine reaches a certain speed, they begin to engage. When it falls below a certain speed, they begin to release. Instantly, and in exactly the right amount.  In the small range of speeds in which they are partially engaged, any increase of RPM clamps them tighter, and any decrease loosens them up. It's that simple.



  • Navaho6

Posted January 16, 2014 - 01:12 PM

#46

Grayracer, I understand everything you're explaining.  I knew most of that already but Thanks.  It's been a good discussion but there is no point in continuing.  We are not even comparing the same product, and it's apparent that your Z-start Pro is superior to the EXP 2.0. 

 

I will leave it at this.  I don't need an autoclutch because I don't have problems without one.  I struggled more with the EXP 2.0.  I also prefer the manual clutch for reasons I explained above.   There's no doubt that the autoclutch is a wonderful tool for a lot of riders, and particularly those who have some issues with a manual clutch for many various reasons. 


Edited by Navaho6, January 16, 2014 - 03:12 PM.


  • KTMsSuck351

Posted January 16, 2014 - 10:02 PM

#47

Grayracer, I understand everything you're explaining. I knew most of that already but Thanks. It's been a good discussion but there is no point in continuing. We are not even comparing the same product, and it's apparent that your Z-start Pro is superior to the EXP 2.0.

I will leave it at this. I don't need an autoclutch because I don't have problems without one. I struggled more with the EXP 2.0. I also prefer the manual clutch for reasons I explained above. There's no doubt that the autoclutch is a wonderful tool for a lot of riders, and particularly those who have some issues with a manual clutch for many various reasons.


I couldn't agree more. Manual clutches are more predictable and have a lot more advantages then the auto clutches.

  • Monk

Posted January 16, 2014 - 10:03 PM

#48

I couldn't agree more. Manual clutches are more predictable and have a lot more advantages then the auto clutches.


You need to learn more....

  • KTMsSuck351

Posted January 16, 2014 - 10:14 PM

#49

You need to learn more....

It's just what I prefer. I personally think that with my personal setup it works better. I just tried a KTM with a Rekluse yesterday and I hated it.

  • Monk

Posted January 16, 2014 - 10:28 PM

#50

It's just what I prefer. I personally think that with my personal setup it works better. I just tried a KTM with a Rekluse yesterday and I hated it.


Have you ever owned a bike WITH a Rekluse? And what model of Rekluse and what bike?

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  • miweber929

Posted January 17, 2014 - 05:50 AM

#51

Who are you guys trying to convince that an auto clutch is better, others or yourselves? Navaho had a bad experience and prefers manual, same with KTMsSuck; some people don't like them and prefer a manual clutch (myself included) that's the end of it.

Are they wrong because they don't agree?

Look, not everyone agrees with "new" technology, not everyone likes change and some people are faster because they are more comfortable being in control 100% of their clutch action. Grey, you're supposed to be a mod yet arguing someone's obviously not literal usage of the term "mind of its own"; why, to make him feel stupid because he doesn't agree with you? You're supposed to stop needless jabbing and attacks yet you're the one actually doing it. We all know how they work, no need to go over it again and again like we're stupid or something because YOU and Monk, for instance, find them helpful.

Let it go, to each their own. I can think of about 1,000 things I'd rather spend $1,000 on than an auto clutch, I'm sure others can too. Back on topic, ok?

Mike

Edited by miweber929, January 17, 2014 - 05:51 AM.


  • beezer

Posted January 17, 2014 - 06:13 AM

#52

I tried a Rekluse on my 05.  I got it working the way it was supposed to.

 

But I just didn't like it so I took it off and sold it to a buddy.



  • grayracer513

Posted January 17, 2014 - 07:25 AM

#53

 Grey, you're supposed to be a mod yet arguing someone's obviously not literal usage of the term "mind of its own"; why, to make him feel stupid because he doesn't agree with you? You're supposed to stop needless jabbing and attacks yet you're the one actually doing it.

 

First, there is and has been no personal "jabs" in this discussion, either by myself or anyone else involved in it with me.  I made a statement regarding Rekluse auto clutches.  That position was "attacked", as you say by another.  I was not "attacked", my position on the matter was.  I countered, focusing on the technical issue only, and haven't said anything about anyone personally.  Opinions about other personalities don't alter any of the facts pertinent to the technical matter being discussed, so they aren't necessary, and aren't productive, as all they do is cloud the issue and get people off track.   That's called a discussion, and that's what the forum is for.   If he feels stupid because of it, which I see no evidence of, it's his fault, not mine.  Nothing that he's written makes him appear so.

 

The phrase, "mind of its own" suggests that the unit is unpredictable and apt to take actions at random for reasons that can't be understood.  That's not the case, and that's what I was responding to in that particular instance.  It's inaccurate, and contributes to the volume of misinformation surrounding advanced auto clutch designs.



  • KTMsSuck351

Posted January 17, 2014 - 07:33 AM

#54

Have you ever owned a bike WITH a Rekluse? And what model of Rekluse and what bike?

No but 2 days ago I tried a 450 XC-W I'm not sure what model of Rekluse but he said it was the most expensive one they had. I think he said it was $900. I just didn't like it at all.

Edited by KTMsSuck351, January 17, 2014 - 07:36 AM.


  • Monk

Posted January 17, 2014 - 07:36 AM

#55

Who are you guys trying to convince that an auto clutch is better, others or yourselves? Navaho had a bad experience and prefers manual, same with KTMsSuck; some people don't like them and prefer a manual clutch (myself included) that's the end of it.

Are they wrong because they don't agree?

Look, not everyone agrees with "new" technology, not everyone likes change and some people are faster because they are more comfortable being in control 100% of their clutch action. Grey, you're supposed to be a mod yet arguing someone's obviously not literal usage of the term "mind of its own"; why, to make him feel stupid because he doesn't agree with you? You're supposed to stop needless jabbing and attacks yet you're the one actually doing it. We all know how they work, no need to go over it again and again like we're stupid or something because YOU and Monk, for instance, find them helpful.

Let it go, to each their own. I can think of about 1,000 things I'd rather spend $1,000 on than an auto clutch, I'm sure others can too. Back on topic, ok?

Mike

I have no problem with him not liking a auto clutch. What I want to know is "why"!? I think it's ridiculous that people say something like they suck but can't back up that info. Or better yet, has the OP ever even owned one? If he hasn't doesnt that make his opinion kinda irrelevant?

EDIT: There you go, the OP has never owned one. How can he make any judgment or opinion on a product he's never had on his own bike?

Edited by Monk, January 17, 2014 - 07:41 AM.


  • grayracer513

Posted January 17, 2014 - 07:51 AM

#56

It's a little closed minded to try something as different as that once for ten minutes and decide you don't like it, too.  It took me a good 3-4 weeks or better to really learn how to get the most out of it.  

 

It is true that everyone won't like them, and I really doubt I'd have one on an MX bike, a flat tracker, or a road bike.  It's also true that the WR450 is less of a problem to keep running at low speeds in the first place because of the triumvirate of a much heavier flywheel, a lower first gear, and and engine with a much better temperament at low speeds, too.

 

They aren't for everyone, but they sure do the job for me.  BTW, I used to think I had no use for one, too.  Life is a learning experience.



  • stevethe

Posted January 17, 2014 - 08:48 AM

#57

Auto clutches are an interesting issue. I tried one on someone Else's KTM 300 and did not like it. Reminded me of the old z 50's and 70's with the three speed trans. However I believe the owner liked it a lot.

 

The interesting thing that could be a future possibility would be a complete automatic transmission. I recently drove a new Porsche with a very awesome paddle shifting automatic transmission. In the old days if you were to ask a Porsche driver about an automatic they would laugh. Not anymore they are suppose to be faster in a straight line than a stick. Well who drives too much in a straight line anyways. However I think it could be complicated and might be heavy in a motorcycle.



  • 72degrees

Posted January 17, 2014 - 09:08 AM

#58

I like the slipper clutch on my tuned 03 (set up for supermoto)  YZ450F, but that is riding it on tarmac. Hammering on the brake and downshifting in to first going in to a hairpin on  a speed hillclimb a 450 4T can get a bit hairy. Most of the 500 and 750 class running singles have them. I'm not finding it an issue on the KTM 350SXF though so perhaps I'd be fine without. My old Husky 510 had no such trickery - though that could get skittish at the back under similar provocation. In any case, the 320 mm front rotor and huge Braking caliper mean engine braking is redundant and the rear is for backing it in (on dry tarmac by the experts) - if only I had the bottle.

 

If I was still riding French forest roads and on  a 4T instead of the 96  WR250Z I had then I'd be fitting an auto clutch!



  • miweber929

Posted January 17, 2014 - 09:23 AM

#59

First, there is and has been no personal "jabs" in this discussion, either by myself or anyone else involved in it with me.  I made a statement regarding Rekluse auto clutches.  That position was "attacked", as you say by another.  I was not "attacked", my position on the matter was.  I countered, focusing on the technical issue only, and haven't said anything about anyone personally.  Opinions about other personalities don't alter any of the facts pertinent to the technical matter being discussed, so they aren't necessary, and aren't productive, as all they do is cloud the issue and get people off track.   That's called a discussion, and that's what the forum is for.   If he feels stupid because of it, which I see no evidence of, it's his fault, not mine.  Nothing that he's written makes him appear so.

 

The phrase, "mind of its own" suggests that the unit is unpredictable and apt to take actions at random for reasons that can't be understood.  That's not the case, and that's what I was responding to in that particular instance.  It's inaccurate, and contributes to the volume of misinformation surrounding advanced auto clutch designs.

I didn't say "personal" you did, I said "jabs" which he clearly stated he bought one, didn't like it but didn't try the more expensive one which may have worked better and you decided to keep up telling him how wrong he is. I am simply stating that as a mod, both the OP and Navaho said they tried them and didn't like them but you seem hell bent on proving them wrong. Let it go, Navaho left the discussion based on your continued badgering him over this, see post #46.

 

Post #48 by Monk isn't a personal jab?

 

I have no problem with him not liking a auto clutch. What I want to know is "why"!? I think it's ridiculous that people say something like they suck but can't back up that info. Or better yet, has the OP ever even owned one? If he hasn't doesnt that make his opinion kinda irrelevant?

EDIT: There you go, the OP has never owned one. How can he make any judgment or opinion on a product he's never had on his own bike?

You're right, he doesn't own a bike with one, but he CLEARLY stated he rode a bike with an auto clutch and didn't care for it. I don't have to buy every single bike I am thinking about purchasing to determine if I like it or not, that's what test rides are for. Sort of makes your opinion irrelevent as well as you have no idea where the OP's skill level is, what his style is or even how "fast" he is. Maybe he's fine as is, like I said earlier speed is a direct result of comfort, if he's comfortable without one that doesn't make him wrong and you right. He said he didn't like it, it's enough; look at post #48, not needed.

 

It's a little closed minded to try something as different as that once for ten minutes and decide you don't like it, too.  It took me a good 3-4 weeks or better to really learn how to get the most out of it.  

 

It is true that everyone won't like them, and I really doubt I'd have one on an MX bike, a flat tracker, or a road bike.  It's also true that the WR450 is less of a problem to keep running at low speeds in the first place because of the triumvirate of a much heavier flywheel, a lower first gear, and and engine with a much better temperament at low speeds, too.

 

They aren't for everyone, but they sure do the job for me.  BTW, I used to think I had no use for one, too.  Life is a learning experience.

So based on your experience as stated above every bike you ride you buy? Because I don't see anyone letting a 3-4 week test drive happen. I know can tell you that I can tell after 5 minutes whether I like something or not with pretty much anything mechanical, it's not that unusual. As well it's a little close minded to think everyone will like or be faster because you like something or are faster with it.

 

You've given all of us your opinion, all the options, and told us YOU think it works. Great, it's appreciated. All I am saying is Navaho said he tried it and didn't like it (OP did as well) and that should be the end. If someone says they are leaving a conversation because of your writings I'd say you may have stepped over the line a bit. As a mod you should know that, and as someone who has gotten the line drawn on me (by you, I might add) I can tell you that's what I read as an outsider.

 

Mike


Edited by miweber929, January 17, 2014 - 09:26 AM.


  • beezer

Posted January 17, 2014 - 09:29 AM

#60

I think a few people here have way to much time on their hands.






 
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