Discontinue GYTR Comp ECU Bootup FI Map Self-Adjustment? When?


31 replies to this topic
  • mebgardner

Posted January 09, 2014 - 09:08 AM

#1

I've read on another thread that the GYTR Comp ECU will sense the atmospheric and engine condition on startup / bootup, and perform a self adjustment to the FI mapping, based on current conditions.  That adjustment does not change during that ECU "ride" time period.

 

The thread also stated there is a built in clock which retards the timing -4 / -5 deg. for the 1st 5 hours of / from (new) operation.

 

I think I understand that the "current conditions" mapping can be reset from stock ECU values to current conditions ECU values by following the procedure listed.

 

 

 

This thread:

 

http://www.thumperta...ing-woes/page-3

 

Page #3, Post #51 and #54.

 

 

My question is:  Does the need for this particual startup / kill / restart process ever go away? When?

 

A follow-on question is: Do  I wait until the built in timer expires before adjusting the Idle / CO mix, using the "factory" tool?  That is, I dont go to the dealer requesting the Idle mix be adjusted until the "clock" expires?  (This affects "hard-starting", and possibly "boil-over" and "cherry red header" conditions, is why I'm asking.  I want to get it done, and they're possibly related to the Idle settings...)

 

 

 

Here's the gist of it:

 

"

The GYTR ECU DOES change the entire map, both fuel and ignition.....but the TUNER does not affect the new ECU below 4000rpm.

Without the GYTR ECU, it will NEVER RUN CORRECTLY.

The stock ECU has a clock in it. Until it sees 5 hours, it WILL NOT RUN OR START CORRECTLY because the ignition is retarded -4 until it passes 5 hours. This is SOP on all FI bikes now, so new owners won't seize the motor in the first few hours of riding.......

On the first batch of KTM EXC's, the clock was 10 hours, and it drove everyone nuts.....

Remember, when you start the bike, let it warm up to get to full temp, for a few minutes.......and then.....

Then kill the motor for 3 min, restart the bike WITHOUT ANY THROTTLE OR THROTTLE BLIPS, and let it idle for at least one minute.

Kill the motor, and then re-start and ride as desired.


This will allow the ECU to re-map to the info from the Mass Air Pressure and Temp sensors, correcting the F/I and Ignition map for your riding area.

The ECU mapping CANNOT / WILL NOT CHANGE WHILE YOU ARE RIDING.

So if you go up in attitude you have to repeat the last two steps, if you notice the bike running rich or lean.

 

 

 

I contacted Kehien (and KTM) when I was having trouble with my 2012 KTM 500 XC-W, with excessive leanness and terrible throttle linearity.

They gave me a wealth of information, which took a few months to get clarified and distilled down to some usable information.

I have since learned that the ECU used on one version of the Kehien Throttle Body (the one used on KTM MX, the new WR, and the new 2011/12 CRF450R) is the same on all bikes, electronically. Just the mapping and physical shape are different, and some are LOCKED OUT, like the WR, the EXC's and the TE Husky's. You have to 'unlock' them, or replace them with a 'competition' version, like on the WR, if you want the bike to start, idle, go fast, not stall, and not over heat. Minor, issues, eh?

The 'map adjust' feature on the ECU is on all ECU's, but is not necessarily 'active' on all ECU's (Honda CRF450R for example).

It is there to allow 'instant jetting adjustment' by the rider (but only =/- 10% maximum).

You have to do it with a warm motor; one minute of staring and idling with NO throttle, shut off, and then re start and go.

It will also adjust the igniton mapping, but only =/- 1 or 2%, I am told.

Some of the information I gathered from KTM and Kehien was extremely conflicting, even within the same company, so it got very frustrating trying to 'nail down' the exact issues, solutions, and methods.

If the FI system were a closed-loop type system, it would also adjust for more severe issues (clogged injector, extremely high humidity) and do it on the fly, but we don't have that level of sophistication on off-road bikes yet.

Oh, and what happened to the KTM? Well, three over-heated throttle bodies later, I sold it.
The 2012 models have TONS of TB problems, especially the 500, which ran too hot to solve the problems permanently......

... POS.....

 

 

 

 



  • grayracer513

Posted January 09, 2014 - 09:35 AM

#2

I'd be skeptical of the whole thing.  Automotive ECU's have gone so far beyond this sort of thing that it would surprise me to learn that very much of it was entirely accurate.  It's also quite unclear as to what part applies to the WR OEM ECU as well, other than it's locked, and the EPA has seen to it that it won't run right with that one. 

 

Vehicles with advanced EFI systems generally adapt on the fly, as they update the BARO information constantly at a very high rate, sometimes for each individual injection of fuel, but at least every few seconds.  What does sometimes toss a wrench into things temporarily is if the vehicle is transported to a significantly different atmospheric environment while powered off.  Moving from Tuscon to Flagstaff could conceivably cause the ECU to wake up "confused" by the change, but it doesn't take most of them very long to adjust to it.

 

You can, of course try all that out and see what the results are, but I will remain a skeptic until I see some documentation.



  • Krannie McKranface

Posted January 09, 2014 - 10:01 AM

#3

According to Keihin, whom I contacted when I was having trouble with the Throttle body on my KTM, this is the methodology the TB sensors and ECU use to do the air density corrections.

They claim that all of the TB and ECU's work this way, unless modified by the Manufactuer. KTM modifies theirs.

I did not ask them about the WR EFT, cause I don't own one.

 

But the  description of warm it up, shut it off, start it up with no throttle for 1 min was what they said they engineered into the FI system to make air density induced changes to the FI and ignition curves.

Temp induced changes were on the fly. I experienced power loss with my KTM FI system when the motor started to over heat; the ignition was retarding.

 

I have no way to prove this.

 

The last two FI bikes I had were full of bugs and troubles, and I got rid of them.



  • mebgardner

Posted January 09, 2014 - 03:30 PM

#4

KoolAid:

 

Let's for the moment assume you've got accurate info, and that the ECU actually behaves the way you describe.  I'm willing to go there...

 

Would you please give us your opinion on the answer to the posed question?

 

I'm thinking the answer is:  Anytime you greatly change the "current conditions" from the "last known conditions" (at shutdown / power off).

 

Greatly change being something like changing altutude a few thousand feet (trailering a cycle up the mountain, as GrayRacer inferred).

 

But, I dont know. So, I'm asking the Best and Brightest, and you've done most of the work so far :)

 

I think I understand your constraints: You're willing to discuss something made by a Fuel System Management Engineering firm (Keihin), and mayebe not so much about how Yamaha has modified it (via firmware?  SW?), or how it's operation is unique to the YZ / WR series of their cycles.

 

...and that you do not own one of these WR450 cycles (that's how I intepreted what you wrote).  You did your investigation based on a KTM, a different cycle using the same FMS / EFT / ECU etc.

 

I also have some difficulty with GreyRacers comparo of our FMS to that of a modern auto system.  It has been a very long time since auto FI has not been an "open loop" system, and his description fits the description of a closed loop FI system perfectly.

 

But, I think what I read from this thread, and previous, is that this cycle has an "open loop" FI, and does not behave in the same manner.

 

If this is true, it's a major disconnect between your two viewpoints.

 

Given that I have some understanding of the constraints around your answer, I'm still asking.


Edited by mebgardner, January 09, 2014 - 03:36 PM.


  • Krannie McKranface

Posted January 09, 2014 - 05:50 PM

#5

You are WAY over thinking this.

 

If you, like most of us, start your bike and let it warm up with no throttle, for at least one minute, it will be setting parameters at that time.

If you do it again after the motor is hot, it will be slightly more accurate, is all I am saying. It may make zero difference between hot and cold for your environment.

 

It's only a +/- 5% adjustment automatically in fuel and timing, I am told.

That is a small change.

Hence the need for a 'real' mapping adjustment tool, or even just the basic GYTR programmer, is not an option, if you want good Fuel/air and timing curves.

 

You cannot go from 0 elevation to 12,000 ft elevation without manually changing mapping. It's not like a closed loop FI system in a car.

How far can you go? I have no idea.

I've ridden with WR FI guys who start at 0 and we ride to 8500+; they notice the lack of air in the performance of the motor, but it is not like two stroke jetting, where the bike becomes un-rideable; it's just sluggish.

 

FI is not simpler, easier, cheaper, or better......unless it's tuned right, and maintained....just like a carb

.....and the built-in 'auto adjust' will NOT correct real issues of bad FI programming (IE, as it comes from the factory).

If it did, none of us would be talking about re-maps!

 

The better you get your FI fuel/air ration and timing advances at the median of your riding altitude, the better it will work at all altitudes.

 

I would get the GYTR programmer at the very least, and use a known good map to match your intake/exhaust state of tune, and go from there.

 

If you want more points of tuning, especially at idle and right off idle, you have to get the Yamaha 'tool' programmer, which is way more advanced.

 

It took a good 5 years before the range and tuning of the Keihin FCR carbs were figured out.....I expect it will be the same with the FI....if they would just stop 'improving' it.

 

I am NOT the expert on this. 

I have not met an expert on this.

I have tried to find one, and failed. 


Edited by TheKoolAidMadeMeSick, January 09, 2014 - 06:01 PM.


  • f150jokerstyle

Posted January 09, 2014 - 06:40 PM

#6

You are WAY over thinking this.

 

If you, like most of us, start your bike and let it warm up with no throttle, for at least one minute, it will be setting parameters at that time.

If you do it again after the motor is hot, it will be slightly more accurate, is all I am saying. It may make zero difference between hot and cold for your environment.

 

It's only a +/- 5% adjustment automatically in fuel and timing, I am told.

That is a small change.

Hence the need for a 'real' mapping adjustment tool, or even just the basic GYTR programmer, is not an option, if you want good Fuel/air and timing curves.

 

You cannot go from 0 elevation to 12,000 ft elevation without manually changing mapping. It's not like a closed loop FI system in a car.

How far can you go? I have no idea.

I've ridden with WR FI guys who start at 0 and we ride to 8500+; they notice the lack of air in the performance of the motor, but it is not like two stroke jetting, where the bike becomes un-rideable; it's just sluggish.

 

FI is not simpler, easier, cheaper, or better......unless it's tuned right, and maintained....just like a carb

.....and the built-in 'auto adjust' will NOT correct real issues of bad FI programming (IE, as it comes from the factory).

If it did, none of us would be talking about re-maps!

 

The better you get your FI fuel/air ration and timing advances at the median of your riding altitude, the better it will work at all altitudes.

 

I would get the GYTR programmer at the very least, and use a known good map to match your intake/exhaust state of tune, and go from there.

 

If you want more points of tuning, especially at idle and right off idle, you have to get the Yamaha 'tool' programmer, which is way more advanced.

 

It took a good 5 years before the range and tuning of the Keihin FCR carbs were figured out.....I expect it will be the same with the FI....if they would just stop 'improving' it.

 

I am NOT the expert on this. 

I have not met an expert on this.

I have tried to find one, and failed. 

 

http://www.yamahamot...81/1/video.aspx

 

Bold point #1 watch link above and view from 1:23 on. Completely contradicts what you just said. Don't know if you know this but the higher you go in elevation the more HP lost. 

 

HP Loss = (elevation x 0.03 x horsepower @ sea level)/1000

 

 
Bold point #2

I agree with that statement anyways.

 

Now stop trolling! Everywhere I go on here I see you trolling. Its anoying.



  • Krannie McKranface

Posted January 09, 2014 - 07:33 PM

#7

http://www.yamahamot...81/1/video.aspx

 

Bold point #1 watch link above and view from 1:23 on. Completely contradicts what you just said. Don't know if you know this but the higher you go in elevation the more HP lost. 

 

HP Loss = (elevation x 0.03 x horsepower @ sea level)/1000

 

 
Bold point #2

I agree with that statement anyways.

 

Now stop trolling! Everywhere I go on here I see you trolling. Its anoying.

 

No, it exactly confirms what I said.

 

"... it will go from 6k to 12k..... without a problem".

 

Not 0ft to 12kft. 

 

It can only compensate automatically by so much, without reading the oxygen content in the exhaust....which it can't do.

 

 

It cannot compensate for 12k in elevation change; it's not designed to do that.

 

Why are you so upset?

 

You define someone who is trying to help as a Troller?

 

..and why 'are you seeing me everywhere'?  Are you a stalker?

 

You are negative and anti-productive.



  • f150jokerstyle

Posted January 09, 2014 - 08:30 PM

#8

No, it exactly confirms what I said.

 

"... it will go from 6k to 12k..... without a problem".

 

Not 0ft to 12kft. 

 

It can only compensate automatically by so much, without reading the oxygen content in the exhaust....which it can't do.

 

 

It cannot compensate for 12k in elevation change; it's not designed to do that.

 

Why are you so upset?

 

You define someone who is trying to help as a Troller?

 

..and why 'are you seeing me everywhere'?  Are you a stalker?

 

You are negative and anti-productive.

 

Lets start from the top.

 

If it will go from 6000ft to 12000ft without a problem why would it not go from X ft to X ft without a problem? Are you trying to say you need to stop every 6000ft and monkey with something or the bike will not work correctly because that is what you are implying from what I can tell. That makes no logical sense from where i'm setting. Maybe i'm missing something??

 

Where did you read, view or obtain any knowledge that it is not designed to compensate from 0ft to 12000ft. At least my argument I have provided what I consider proof supporting my side. 

 

When did I say I was up set? I clearly only stated I was annoyed.

 

If I have yelled, swear at you, and or insulted you with little or no purpose, I profusely apologize to you and TT. Sources: urban dictionary  

 

My bad luck I suppose. I have never been accused of or considered my self one. 

 

Weather I'm negative or not is possibly debatable but that most likely was a byproduct of my slight annoyance. I actually thought I was moderately productive by providing a video link to help argue my side and provide you a mathematical formula to help figure out why your friends experience a loss of power as they increase altitude.

 

If you would like to discuss anything that I did not bold further feel free to pm me, seeing as how everything not bolded is pretty far off topic.

 

 


 


  • funt

Posted January 09, 2014 - 09:10 PM

#9

Imagine if you had to kickstart your car when it was cold.  That would suck.  The bike doesn't have an oxygen sensor so if your idle is lean it doesn't know and wont adjust itself.  The car adjusts that automatically.  The oxygen sensor in most cars is only good for idle and cruise.  But it uses that info to make changes to the rest of the map over time.  I guess the dealer could get your idle right if they have the tool.  Then the procedure you are describing probably works.  But if the idle isn't set right to begin with, it doesn't know what to shoot for without an oxygen sensor.


Edited by funt, January 09, 2014 - 09:55 PM.


  • grayracer513

Posted January 10, 2014 - 08:12 AM

#10

There are obviously several people who don't at all get the meaning of "closed loop" as used in reference to electronic engine controls, or the function of an oxygen sensor. 

 

"Closed loop" operation exists where a system uses an oxygen sensor to provide feedback information from the exhaust stream to the ECU that shows the more or less precise mixture state the engine is currently running in.  If it reports "too rich", the unit adapts.  Likewise a report of "too lean".  This is determined by reading the difference in temperature on the upstream and downstream sides of the sensor probe. The sensor does not actually measure oxygen content, it "determines" it from this information.  But there are two very important things to know about this.  The first one is that the oxygen sensor is fairly slow to respond to changes, and can't deal with a very wide range of temperature differences, so they are incapable of proper operation at or near full throttle, and are completely inactive beyond about 2/3 throttle.  Above that, the engine is using its most recently modified map.  "Closed loop" exists only when rolling along at a steady speed under "cruising" loads.

 

The second thing is that oxygen sensors don't work until they arrive at around 600 ℉.  This means that they are inoperative on cold starts.  However, the system "knows" immediately what the air density is as soon as it's powered up by using information from the BARO (barometric pressure) sensor and IAT (intake air temperature) sensor.  Fuel distribution IS adjusted based on this information regardless of how and when it happens to change.  None of this occurs in a "closed loop" state, and and oxygen sensor has no part in the matter.  There is no technological reason that a system without an OS can't completely adapt itself to changing ambient conditions on the fly.

 

The "loss of performance" experienced at high altitude will occur regardless of whether the unit adapts itself or is manually remapped to adjust fuel delivery for the simple reason that there is less air per cubic foot going through the engine.  Higher altitudes cause a too rich condition in an unadjusted system, lower the dynamic compression, and lowers the flash point of liquids.



Visit the ThumperTalk Store for the lowest prices on motorcycle / ATV parts and accessories - Guaranteed
  • funt

Posted January 10, 2014 - 02:44 PM

#11

I guess it's all in the programming.  An oxygen sensor wouldn't make the idle right if it was programmed to run super lean.  I don't think this fuel injection system is as sophisticated as a car or a street bike.  I was kind of surprised to see there was a choke knob.



  • GP1K

Posted January 10, 2014 - 04:09 PM

#12

I guess it's all in the programming.  An oxygen sensor wouldn't make the idle right if it was programmed to run super lean.  I don't think this fuel injection system is as sophisticated as a car or a street bike.  I was kind of surprised to see there was a choke knob.

 

It's definitely not as sophisticated as a car or street bike.... yet. I expect it will be, eventually.

 

It's not a choke, just a high idle knob, not unlike some FI street bikes.



  • mebgardner

Posted January 11, 2014 - 07:16 AM

#13

http://www.yamahamot...81/1/video.aspx

 

Bold point #1 watch link above and view from 1:23 on. Completely contradicts what you just said. Don't know if you know this but the higher you go in elevation the more HP lost. 

 

HP Loss = (elevation x 0.03 x horsepower @ sea level)/1000

 

 
Bold point #2

I agree with that statement anyways.

 

Now stop trolling! Everywhere I go on here I see you trolling. Its anoying.

 

 

Please be quiet for a little while.  I asked for this man's advice, and he's trying to be helpful.  And, I believe he's succeeding, too.

 

Now please, be still and just read for awhile.



  • mebgardner

Posted January 11, 2014 - 01:03 PM

#14

There are obviously several people who don't at all get the meaning of "closed loop" as used in reference to electronic engine controls, or the function of an oxygen sensor. 

 

"Closed loop" operation exists where a system uses an oxygen sensor to provide feedback information from the exhaust stream to the ECU that shows the more or less precise mixture state the engine is currently running in.  If it reports "too rich", the unit adapts.  Likewise a report of "too lean".  This is determined by reading the difference in temperature on the upstream and downstream sides of the sensor probe. The sensor does not actually measure oxygen content, it "determines" it from this information.  But there are two very important things to know about this.  The first one is that the oxygen sensor is fairly slow to respond to changes, and can't deal with a very wide range of temperature differences, so they are incapable of proper operation at or near full throttle, and are completely inactive beyond about 2/3 throttle.  Above that, the engine is using its most recently modified map.  "Closed loop" exists only when rolling along at a steady speed under "cruising" loads.

 

The second thing is that oxygen sensors don't work until they arrive at around 600 ℉.  This means that they are inoperative on cold starts.  However, the system "knows" immediately what the air density is as soon as it's powered up by using information from the BARO (barometric pressure) sensor and IAT (intake air temperature) sensor.  Fuel distribution IS adjusted based on this information regardless of how and when it happens to change.  None of this occurs in a "closed loop" state, and and oxygen sensor has no part in the matter.  There is no technological reason that a system without an OS can't completely adapt itself to changing ambient conditions on the fly.

 

The "loss of performance" experienced at high altitude will occur regardless of whether the unit adapts itself or is manually remapped to adjust fuel delivery for the simple reason that there is less air per cubic foot going through the engine.  Higher altitudes cause a too rich condition in an unadjusted system, lower the dynamic compression, and lowers the flash point of liquids.

 

This is helpful. Thanks!



  • mebgardner

Posted January 11, 2014 - 01:13 PM

#15

If you, like most of us, start your bike and let it warm up with no throttle, for at least one minute, it will be setting parameters at that time.

If you do it again after the motor is hot, it will be slightly more accurate, is all I am saying. It may make zero difference between hot and cold for your environment.

 

It's only a +/- 5% adjustment automatically in fuel and timing, I am told.

 

Ok, I accept this as the answer to the question of:

 

Does the need for this particual startup / kill / restart process ever go away? When?

 

 

Care to take a stab at this one?:

 

A follow-on question is: Do  I wait until the built in timer expires before adjusting the Idle / CO mix, using the "factory" tool?  That is, I dont go to the dealer requesting the Idle mix be adjusted until the "clock" expires?  (This affects "hard-starting", and possibly "boil-over" and "cherry red header" conditions, is why I'm asking.  I want to get it done, and they're possibly related to the Idle settings...)

 

That is, I think I've read that there is a -4/-5 deg retard that "times out" in approx 5 hours after a new ECU starts up operations.  That built in timer...



  • scott525

Posted January 11, 2014 - 01:40 PM

#16

Lookingforward to the answer.



  • funt

Posted January 11, 2014 - 04:59 PM

#17

I don't think the competition ecu would have that timer.



  • mebgardner

Posted January 12, 2014 - 07:33 AM

#18

It's likely that KoolAid does not know if the Comp ECU does indeed have this timer in use (it might be there, but might not be used: SW).

 

It's also  possible he's moved on from this thread. Him and GrayRacer have basically agreed with each other (tho, GrayRacer likely remains unconvinced without documentation).

 

I'm satisified I now know more thanks to both of them.

 

I'll ask in a new thread in a few days if he does not reply.



  • Krannie McKranface

Posted January 12, 2014 - 07:54 AM

#19

I know nothing

I see nothing

 

...but I am quick to jump on people that I just KNOW know less than me.

 

That is my contribution.



  • mebgardner

Posted January 12, 2014 - 08:29 AM

#20

I know nothing

I see nothing

 

...but I am quick to jump on people that I just KNOW know less than me.

 

That is my contribution.

 

Haha!, you 'da Stalag13 dude!






 
x

Join Our Community!

Even if you don't want to post, registered members get access to tools that make finding & following the good stuff easier.

If you enjoyed reading about "" here in the ThumperTalk archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join ThumperTalk today!

The views and opinions expressed on this page are strictly those of the author, and have not been reviewed or approved by ThumperTalk.