hard starting (valves are fine)



41 replies to this topic
  • dirtbikefodder

Posted October 16, 2013 - 10:50 AM

#21

I'm wondering if my added TrailTech Speedometer/Odometer is draining the battery and the Stator is also drained and not recharging the battery fully or vice versa..

 

I'll check the voltages/wirings when I get it chance.  But I read with some dirt bikes (possibly the WR450F since it's a trail bike with lights) - the stator is part of the ignition.


Edited by dirtbikefodder, October 16, 2013 - 11:29 AM.


  • cumminsgetsome

Posted October 18, 2013 - 05:03 PM

#22

Sounds like maybe the de compression on the cam is not working if the starter can't turn it over?. Is it hard to kick?

  • dirtbikefodder

Posted October 22, 2013 - 09:28 AM

#23

Sounds like maybe the de compression on the cam is not working if the starter can't turn it over?. Is it hard to kick?

 

Yes it's the most difficult bike to kick over I've had.  Seems random but a little easier when it's warmed up.  But when it's cold I have to do it at least 5 times.  Where as a normal bike I can do it first time.

 

I haven't been around to look over the connections and make sure it's getting proper voltage.  I plan to do that with a voltage meter. 

 

Can these bikes (WR450F) be kicked over without a battery or stator?  If not then I'm leaning towards a grounded wire somewhere or maybe bad Stator...



  • GuyGraham

Posted October 22, 2013 - 10:28 AM

#24

It will not run without a battery



  • dirtbikefodder

Posted October 22, 2013 - 10:45 AM

#25

Alright.  I'm hoping to get to the bike this weekend and will have a voltage meter in hand to see if it's a drained battery or stator or grounded wire/fuse causing the issues before looking at the Cam.



  • dirtbikefodder

Posted October 27, 2013 - 01:05 PM

#26

So the actual battery has proper voltage.  The rear brake light has no issues coming on if I tap the brake (when bike is on but not idling).. Headlights do not go on tho.  The digital speedo goes on fine too.

 

I tried kicking it over and couldn't this weekend.  Tried the electric start and it has a very weak sounding power, cha cha then dies - click click.

 

I talked to a nice guy over at Baja Designs and he told me there are two parts to the Stator, one that controls the lighting and the other controls the ignition.  He also said it's very possible for one to fail and other to be ok.

 

He mentioned that you need to modify the stator with a ground float.  I'm not sure if this was done previously.  I plan to look at the Stator in a couple weeks as I get the time.

 

So I'm thinking it's the stator ignition or grounded wire/fuse somewhere.



  • DunmireD001

Posted October 27, 2013 - 11:45 PM

#27

I highly doubt that it's the stator. May be your technique. Are you sure that when kicking it over, you are not twisting the throttle...even a little bit. Try holding the front brake on while kicking. This eliminates natural twisting. Find top dead centre, then move past it just a touch. Allow the kicker to come back up, then give it a good solid kick. That is what works best on my ktm when its hot, and any older WR/YZ I have tried



This is exactly how I start mine and it always starts within 4 strong kicks (usually on the first or 2nd kick).. When it's cold I usually twist the throttle twice before kicking to prime the cylinder for quicker starting. Yes the earlier yamahas were some of the trickier bikes to get started, (I call it anti theft starting) , but once you get it down, it is easy... Oh and try this with the bike leaning on the kickstand, and you standing on the pegs so that you can give it a good kick. and when you do give it the 1 solid kick, kick it like it owes you money. I get a lot of friends who ride other bikes and then when they try to kick mine they &%$#@! foot it and if you do that you will be there all day...

  • bobpara

Posted October 28, 2013 - 04:45 AM

#28

Most of the times when you have checked the basics first, valve clearance is an issue when you have poor sttarting



  • dirtbikefodder

Posted October 28, 2013 - 05:24 AM

#29

This is exactly how I start mine and it always starts within 4 strong kicks (usually on the first or 2nd kick).. When it's cold I usually twist the throttle twice before kicking to prime the cylinder for quicker starting. Yes the earlier yamahas were some of the trickier bikes to get started, (I call it anti theft starting) , but once you get it down, it is easy... Oh and try this with the bike leaning on the kickstand, and you standing on the pegs so that you can give it a good kick. and when you do give it the 1 solid kick, kick it like it owes you money. I get a lot of friends who ride other bikes and then when they try to kick mine they &%$#@! foot it and if you do that you will be there all day...

 

I really don't think it's my techinque.. I tried everything, even twisting the throttle a few times before kicking.. letting the compression on lever come back up then kicking it fiercely down.. like I mentioned, the electric start has a very weak signal and then click click.  I've kicked over bikes for at least a few years now so I'm not a noob to it. 

 

Has anyone had Stator issues on any bike?  Pretty sure the ignition system goes through the Stator.  And on Baja Designs they say you need to float the ground on Stator when you add the kit... I'm not too sure what that means or does, but they have steps on the site that I will follow in the coming weeks whenever I get a free hour or two.  I didn't take off the tank or anything, but from what I could see no wires were being grounded but I'll double check when I tear it down more.

 

Also, when you kick bikes over - generally you hear a priming sound.. This bike I hear nothing, like the ignition isn't even happening


Edited by dirtbikefodder, October 28, 2013 - 05:26 AM.


  • GuyGraham

Posted October 28, 2013 - 09:39 AM

#30

just becuase your brake light and the digital speedo comes on does not prove your battery is ok

 

If your electric starter goes 'click click' thne its a sure sign it aint got the power to turn over the engine

 

 

What is the battery voltage?

 

Floating the ground is not the answer to your problems

You will need a different reg rec if you float the ground

Floating the ground converts the stator, by diverting the portion of  AC which powers the headlights to the reg rec and then to the battery, and the headlight then works off the battery. This provides more charging power for the battery with the headlight off, or allows you to run a higher wattage bulb as the stator can onlypower a 35W headlight buld in stock set up

The stock set up is perfectly adequate at kkeeping the battery charged if you don't run other things like heated grips etc



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  • dan_zombie

Posted October 28, 2013 - 04:44 PM

#31

I got my first wr450 a few weeks ago and I am JUST now getting the starting down to a few kicks. I thought it was the bike but after pseudo figuring it out I think it's me haha. I usually give the throttle two quick turns then kick it hard. If that doesn't do it I pull the hot start and kick it and it usually complies with that kick. I don't know if it's the correct/ typical way to do it, but it works for me!

  • DeepPurplishBlue

Posted October 28, 2013 - 10:53 PM

#32

If you don't know what "top dead center" is and how to find it you will have difficulty kick starting the WR450


Edited by DeepPurplishBlue, October 28, 2013 - 10:53 PM.


  • dirtbikefodder

Posted October 29, 2013 - 11:26 AM

#33

just becuase your brake light and the digital speedo comes on does not prove your battery is ok

 

If your electric starter goes 'click click' thne its a sure sign it aint got the power to turn over the engine

 

 

What is the battery voltage?

 

Floating the ground is not the answer to your problems

You will need a different reg rec if you float the ground

Floating the ground converts the stator, by diverting the portion of  AC which powers the headlights to the reg rec and then to the battery, and the headlight then works off the battery. This provides more charging power for the battery with the headlight off, or allows you to run a higher wattage bulb as the stator can onlypower a 35W headlight buld in stock set up

The stock set up is perfectly adequate at kkeeping the battery charged if you don't run other things like heated grips etc

 

Thanks for the info.  Very helpful, but...

 

I've tried two brand new 12v batteries.

 

If the bike started with electric start and then I couldn't kick it over, then it'd be easy to blame my kicking technique.

 

But since the electric start isn't churning over completely then I'd think it's related electrical or ignition.  It has this very weak signal like 'chaaaa cha click click'... with new battery I could barely kick it over , after a couple weeks of sitting in the basement I can't get it over now or electric start.

 

When I try to kick, there's nothing that feels like anything is catching.  I'm kicking it fine, like I mentioned, I stand up on peg/stand and hit down pretty hard all the way, tried it with hot start in / out / choke... It's getting chilly in the northeast so bike is in storage and last time I went over it, I couldn't get it to start with either method.  But before that, several weeks, I'd have a hard time getting it to kick over, but when I finally did, it ran flawless.


Edited by dirtbikefodder, October 29, 2013 - 11:37 AM.


  • Krannie McKranface

Posted October 29, 2013 - 11:27 AM

#34

And have you inspected your decompression system?

Have you cleaned all grounds on the chassis and harness?



  • dirtbikefodder

Posted October 29, 2013 - 11:41 AM

#35

And have you inspected your decompression system?

Have you cleaned all grounds on the chassis and harness?

 

I haven't got the time lately but that's my next step for checking the wiring.  It's odd that the rear brake light goes on when pressed and speedo, but the headlight won't (when bike is on but not idling) - is that normal..?

 

The decompression system in the lower part of the engine?  If so that's beyond my 'normal' knowledge and would have to drop it off at a shop unforutnately.  Hoping it's a wiring issue before I attempt anything bottom end related


Edited by dirtbikefodder, October 29, 2013 - 11:42 AM.


  • DeepPurplishBlue

Posted October 29, 2013 - 05:59 PM

#36

Thanks for the info.  Very helpful, but...
 
I've tried two brand new 12v batteries.
 
If the bike started with electric start and then I couldn't kick it over, then it'd be easy to blame my kicking technique.

 
Not necessarily...   the starter motor on these bikes is a major weak link.   It could be that yours has died or is in the final stages of dying.
 

But since the electric start isn't churning over completely then I'd think it's related electrical or ignition.  It has this very weak signal like 'chaaaa cha click click'... with new battery I could barely kick it over , after a couple weeks of sitting in the basement I can't get it over now or electric start.
 
When I try to kick, there's nothing that feels like anything is catching.  I'm kicking it fine, like I mentioned, I stand up on peg/stand and hit down pretty hard all the way, tried it with hot start in / out / choke... It's getting chilly in the northeast so bike is in storage and last time I went over it, I couldn't get it to start with either method.  But before that, several weeks, I'd have a hard time getting it to kick over, but when I finally did, it ran flawless.


Kicking a hard, full stroke is only 50% of the procedure. Without the rest of the procedure
you could be kicking all day or worst case scenario break the kick starter off when the bike
kicks back. Have seen it happen.

For grins and giggles remove the spark plug and try the electric starter. If it still does
not spin the engine or spins it slowly then it is pretty much certain the starter motor is
bad.

  • whoops dude

Posted October 29, 2013 - 06:12 PM

#37

The problem might be simpler than you think...

 

Try this. Make sure your gas is turned on and your choke is on if necessary(try it with and without). Stand up on the pegs and push the kick starter through the entire stroke slowly 3-4 times. Then twist the throttle once or twice quickly at maybe an 1/8 to 1/4 throttle (I usually only use my thumb an index finger for this). After all this give the kick start a nice snappy kick. Think snappy not hard. Should fire within 1-3 kicks using this method if everything else is as it should be.



  • dirtbikefodder

Posted October 30, 2013 - 06:59 AM

#38

Since it is a 2005 bike, and previous owner said they went through some water at times - makes me think it's stator or wiring.

 

The electric start spins very slow like cha cha then click click.

 

I've kicked over Hondas , Husqvarnas for years with no issues.  I'm not sure how Yamahas could vary so much that it'd give an experienced dirt rider alot of trouble kicking over.

 

If it was really my technique and nothing else, then electric start should work.  But it has a very weak churn and never fully goes over. 

 

Thanks for the input guys.  I may just buy a brand new aftermarket Stator w/Reg/Rec and go from there, my time is very limited.  If the aftermarket Stator doesn't improve, I can always return it and confirm it could be bottom end engine related (tho I personally doubt it). 


Edited by dirtbikefodder, October 30, 2013 - 07:13 AM.


  • GuyGraham

Posted October 30, 2013 - 10:12 AM

#39

If it doesn't turn over with a brand new battery then its not your stator is it?



  • dirtbikefodder

Posted October 30, 2013 - 11:41 AM

#40

If it doesn't turn over with a brand new battery then its not your stator is it?

 

I really have no idea .. I thought the Stator is the relay for the ignition and lights of the bike.  So if your battery works, it can relay some power like blinkers and brake light which it does - and speedo.  But if you have issues with a bad stator, then you will have issues starting the bike.

 

From what a Baja Designs employee told me, the stator has two parts, the ignition and lighting.  It's possible for one side to go bad and the other side to be fine.  So in my case, the lighting portion is fine but the ignition side has failed some how some way over the years.  I guess?






 
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