My 2012 WR450F runs hot.


24 replies to this topic
  • MidlifeCrisisGuy

Posted September 22, 2013 - 12:22 PM

#1

I love my 2012 WR, but it seems to run really hot.

I've had coolant boiling off on easy 1st/2nd gear trail riding, hill climbing and muddy trails. None of the other bikes I'm riding with are boiling off. They all have carburetors, including a mostly stock 09 WR405F.. My engine has no issues other than running hot.

I'm running the FMF Powercore muffler and stock header. I'm using the competition ECM with stock tuning.

I'm wondering if the hot running is caused by an excessively lean condition near idle. Because the common denominator in all the boil off situation is operation at lower RPMs.

I'm tempted to take my bike to the dealer and have them richen the mixture at idle and of idle.

Is anyone else having this problem ? How can I get it to run cooler ?

Edited by MidlifeCrisisGuy, September 22, 2013 - 12:23 PM.


  • Ride-n-Hard

Posted September 22, 2013 - 12:51 PM

#2

Sounds a little lean. I'm running the stock exhaust with the pea shooter removed. Right now with a 0,1,0 in the fuels setting mine seems fine, however if I had an opened exhaust and were really loading it down in mud and steep hills I could easily see that as a lean condition. I'm also ruining a milder ignition timing so I'm sure that helps. In the end if its boiling its running to hot and you should do something.

So I'd take the bike to the dealer or borrow a programmer or send your ECM to someone to set it. Just try one of the mud maps you can find in the forum.

  • MidlifeCrisisGuy

Posted September 22, 2013 - 02:17 PM

#3

It is my understanding that the GYTR tuner does not affect idle and off idle AF ratios.

It is my understanding that the dealer can adjust the idle and off idle AF ratios using a probe for feedback.

  • Ride-n-Hard

Posted September 22, 2013 - 02:38 PM

#4

you might be right, I have no idea. however with the idle around 1800 and the first adjustable position is 1/4 at 4k I believe then that would affect idle up since it is blending in the mixture. I doubt the dealer would do anything other then what we do with the programmer. at most he might SRT the tpo. don't read so much into all this stuff. if your loading the bike down riding slow then the bike just needs more fuel. if you can ride the bike around a little faster and your not over heating then its just the fuel mixture.

my opinion.

Doug

  • Corkster

Posted September 22, 2013 - 07:18 PM

#5

I boiled my 2012 WR450F a few weeks ago on a hill.  I have never boiled one of my previous WRs. Not sure why this happened

 

I know mine has a slightly lean idle as I have measured the CO at 3.0% which is not lean by road standards but I would prefer 5.0% for a competition motor.  The GYTR tuner does not affect the idle CO - I have tried.  Your dealer may be able to adjust your idle mixture with the Yamaha FI Diagnostic tool if they have the adaptor for the WR and YZ ECU plug.  All FI yammies use the same tool so your dealer will have the tool; but the new YZs and WRs have a different ECU plug and my dealer did not have one so could not do the adjustment.

 

I have ordered a generic chinese FI diagnostic tool with multiple adaptors and will see if I can get one to fit and work.



  • MidlifeCrisisGuy

Posted September 22, 2013 - 07:25 PM

#6

I boiled my 2012 WR450F a few weeks ago on a hill.  I have never boiled one of my previous WRs. Not sure why this happened
 
I know mine has a slightly lean idle as I have measured the CO at 3.0% which is not lean by road standards but I would prefer 5.0% for a competition motor.  The GYTR tuner does not affect the idle CO - I have tried.  Your dealer may be able to adjust your idle mixture with the Yamaha FI Diagnostic tool if they have the adaptor for the WR and YZ ECU plug.  All FI yammies use the same tool so your dealer will have the tool; but the new YZs and WRs have a different ECU plug and my dealer did not have one so could not do the adjustment.
 
I have ordered a generic chinese FI diagnostic tool with multiple adaptors and will see if I can get one to fit and work.


Please keep me updated on your outcome.

There is a thread on TT about WR450Fs that start poorly with the E starter. The solution was to take the bike into the dealer and have the idle AFR adjusted with the probe. I only tried it a few times but my bike would hardly start with the E starter. I suspect its pretty lean.

Edited by MidlifeCrisisGuy, September 22, 2013 - 07:31 PM.


  • Corkster

Posted September 22, 2013 - 07:38 PM

#7

Another thought - I believe overly retarded timing can cause overheating.



  • Ride-n-Hard

Posted September 22, 2013 - 10:13 PM

#8

The part you guys have me confused on is how is an idle setting going to affect riding up a hill or in the mud. You should be way off idle by then and into the 1/4 or 1/2 throttle by then. It sounds more like an ign timing thing with the fuel.

  • Krannie McKranface

Posted September 23, 2013 - 06:38 AM

#9

Get the GYT ECU programmer and go +1 on the first box (fuel) and -1 (ignition)



  • MidlifeCrisisGuy

Posted September 23, 2013 - 09:51 AM

#10

The part you guys have me confused on is how is an idle setting going to affect riding up a hill or in the mud. You should be way off idle by then and into the 1/4 or 1/2 throttle by then. It sounds more like an ign timing thing with the fuel.


Its in the idle or high idle portion of the map on downhills. Ditto when decelerating for corners. Ditto when waiting for the rider in front of you to clear a bog or a climb.

Get the GYT ECU programmer and go +1 on the first box (fuel) and -1 (ignition)

I have the programmer. I'll give that a try on my next ride.

Edited by MidlifeCrisisGuy, September 23, 2013 - 01:55 PM.


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  • Corkster

Posted September 23, 2013 - 01:01 PM

#11

Get the GYT ECU programmer and go +1 on the first box (fuel) and -1 (ignition)

Why retard the ignition?  This will increase overheating.



  • Corkster

Posted September 23, 2013 - 01:03 PM

#12

The part you guys have me confused on is how is an idle setting going to affect riding up a hill or in the mud. You should be way off idle by then and into the 1/4 or 1/2 throttle by then. It sounds more like an ign timing thing with the fuel.

Good point.  The idle mixture does have some effect up to around 4000 rpm but the 1/4 and 3/8 throttle FI settings are the most likely culprits.



  • vlxjim

Posted September 23, 2013 - 02:08 PM

#13

Why retard the ignition?  This will increase overheating.

Not true the more you advance the timing the closer to preignition the hotter you run. Backing off the timing you are igniting the fuel at a less combustable state. Less of a bang , less power and cooler head temp. This is were most of the heat comes from. Also the higher the octane the higher the timing can be do to higher octane having a higher detonation point. Higher octane fuel just takes more heat for it to burn meaning it can go longer in the stroke before preignition will happen. These bikes need the timing lower if you want a smooth power band. 

 

If you ask me he needs to run the fuel numbers up a bit. He is running a FMF Powercore with a GYTR ECU and stock tuning. Or if he means that he is running the stock FMF map than he need to take the timing down -1 _ -2 across the map.

 

 

OP.

BTW were you running 91+ fuel? 

 

.



  • MidlifeCrisisGuy

Posted September 23, 2013 - 02:17 PM

#14

BTW were you running 91+ fuel?


Now that is a good question. Yes, I am, or at least I am filling my 5 gallon gerry can with 91 fuel. But... how much low octane fuel is in the hose when I fill my can ? Maybe I am not getting 100% 91 when I fill up.

If you ask me he needs to run the fuel numbers up a bit. He is running a FMF Powercore with a GYTR ECU and stock tuning. Or if he means that he is running the stock FMF map than he need to take the timing down -1 _ -2 across the map.


I am running the stock map. Zeros across the board. Unless the previous owner changed the mapping in the ECM when he had it installed. I haven't checked and it wasn't on the work order if they did. And the bike overheated with the stock exhaust as well as the FMF exhaust.

Good discussion.

Edited by MidlifeCrisisGuy, September 23, 2013 - 02:19 PM.


  • vlxjim

Posted September 23, 2013 - 02:29 PM

#15

Here you go. Watch this video and note at 5:10. But you can see that on the graphs that the 4000 rpm setting fuel curve go's way pass the 2000 rpm setting. It just effect the 4000 rpms the most.

 

 

http://www.youtube.c...D8&noredirect=1



  • Corkster

Posted September 23, 2013 - 02:58 PM

#16

Not true the more you advance the timing the closer to preignition the hotter you run. Backing off the timing you are igniting the fuel at a less combustable state. Less of a bang , less power and cooler head temp. This is were most of the heat comes from. Also the higher the octane the higher the timing can be do to higher octane having a higher detonation point. Higher octane fuel just takes more heat for it to burn meaning it can go longer in the stroke before preignition will happen. These bikes need the timing lower if you want a smooth power band. 

 

If you ask me he needs to run the fuel numbers up a bit. He is running a FMF Powercore with a GYTR ECU and stock tuning. Or if he means that he is running the stock FMF map than he need to take the timing down -1 _ -2 across the map.

 

 

OP.

BTW were you running 91+ fuel? 

 

.

Where did you get that from - complete BS.  Sorry but you are completely wrong.  Engine tuning 101.  Less bang - really?  Have a search on the web for the real information.  This is a simplistic but correct example:

 

"Retarded will over heat it most quickly. The burn occurs over about 80 degrees of crank rotation, when started late, there isn't time for the the flame temps to be reduced by work against the crank. This combined with the reaction still occurring when the exhaust valve opens conspires to dump really hot gases into the exhaust passages. This greatly increases the valve temp and the amount of heat picked up by the cooling system thru the structure of the head and exhaust port. The exhaust manifold/headers also become very hot, enough to glow. With retarded timing, the temps come up very quickly.

Too much advance will eventually result in overheating but it's much slower to build compared to retarded timing. Usually before anything bad happens one usually notices that the engine is hard to start, tends to explode thru the carb, and if it runs at all it's with no power and tends to detonate from the extreme pressures formed before TDC. So you usually head this problem off before the temps get very high."

 

or:

 

"When the engine fires normally, the fire burns completely (or nearly so) within the combustion chamber. The heat is kept within the combustion chamber, and as the pressure drops during the power stroke, the superheated gasses cool. As the power stroke occurs, the cylinder absorbs the heat, and when the exhaust valve opens, the burned cool mixture is blown out of the cylinder and combustion chamber.

When timing is retarded, peak pressure and heat is delayed, and is not confined to the combustion chamber. Delayed ignition causes the peak heat and pressure to occur in the cylinder body itself. The flame actually burns the lubricating oil off the cylinder walls, causing more friction. As the combusting mixture is not under high compression, it is less dense, again causing further delays in the burn. When the exhaust valve opens, extremely hot, still burning gasses are blown out the exhaust port. past the valve. This flame heats the valve red hot, and superheats the head and manifold. Running an engine retarded for any length of time, under load, will cause valve burn out, and excess wear to the rings, piston, and cylinder.

Running a 2 stroke engine retarded can have severe consequences as well. Again, it allows the main flame and pressure to build within the cylinder instead of the combustion chamber. The excess heat in the cylinder burns off the lubricating oil, overheats and distorts the cylinder body, and when the exhaust port opens, allows direct flame impingement on the face of the port and piston surface to occur. A severely retarded 2 stroke, under load will melt the piston and damage the exhaust port in short order!eek.gif I have seen engines with the pistons actually blow molten aluminum out the exhaust port, to the point that the rings also get burned off by the flow of burning exhaust out the ports.

An engine, with no load, running retarded may not give symptoms of retarded overheating until it is too late, and damage has been done. This may show up as burned head gaskets, warped or burned valves, poor ring seal, and severe power loss, especially when loaded for a length of time. With the piston removed, a sure sign of retarded timing is a brownish or blued cylinder wall, and a severely varnished, or galled piston skirt. This is directly the result of an over heated piston, and the fact that oil has been burned off the cylinder.

Ignition Timing is not the only reason for retarded timing! Setting the mixture too lean, and or an intake leak (worn throttle shaft, leaking gaskets, broken hoses) will also cause heating due to the lower density of fuel to air within the cylinder. The lower fuel/air density causes the mixture to burn longer, with a similar result in damage."

 



  • Corkster

Posted September 23, 2013 - 03:01 PM

#17

Here you go. Watch this video and note at 5:10. But you can see that on the graphs that the 4000 rpm setting fuel curve go's way pass the 2000 rpm setting. It just effect the 4000 rpms the most.

 

 

http://www.youtube.c...D8&noredirect=1

Cool video thanks!



  • vlxjim

Posted September 23, 2013 - 04:03 PM

#18

 

 

Where did you get that from - complete BS.  Sorry but you are completely wrong.  Engine tuning 101.  Less bang - really?  Have a search on the web for the real information.  This is a simplistic but correct example:

 

What I said was very true for this post. We're talking about a programmer that was designed to adjust single cylinder dirtbike. We're not talking about some hillbilly going out hand tuning a distributer. We're talking about a bike that comes factory tuned with some adjustment capabilities. With that being said the power tuner gives you 4° plus timing and 9° of minus timing. The base factory comp ECU tuning is already zero set with quite an advanced timing. This is why you only get 4° of advancement in the program. And what you say is true about an overly retarded engine not something capable with the power tuner.

 

BTW timing too advance can cause holes to be burned right through pistons, warped heads and blown head gasket. I use to build race bikes for a living so this I know.

 

But the OP replied letting us know that he's using the base 0000 map and that would suggests that he needs to add more fuel with his FMF pipe. And I would also set -1 in the three bottom left corner timing boxes.



  • Corkster

Posted September 23, 2013 - 04:16 PM

#19

 

BTW timing too advance can cause holes to be burned right through pistons, warped heads and blown head gasket. I use to build race bikes for a living so this I know.

 

But the OP replied letting us know that he's using the base 0000 map and that would suggests that he needs to add more fuel with his FMF pipe. And I would also set -1 in the three bottom left corner timing boxes.

 

Yes, too advanced timing, insufficient octane or a lean mixture can all cause detonation and therefore overheating and damage.  Given that the base map of zero is a safe start point, can you explain or justify the benefits of  -1 degree in timing?



  • vlxjim

Posted September 23, 2013 - 09:49 PM

#20

Here is my two favorite maps. The last map is the one I'm running now (My Map) smooth linear. Map 9 is nice but burns a little on the rich side smooth and trackable. The FMF map shown for reference hits way to hard off the hit like a light switch. And is not so good for the slow stuff. Good for fast opened up areas. But I did tame it by taking some timing out of it. My Map is kind of a comp between the two. It runs more fuel than the FMF but not as much as map 9. Timing is higher than map 9 but not as high as the FMF map. Give it a try and see if it helps. It should more fuel and less timing down low. Keep in mind I'm running a Q4 so you may need a little more fuel. give it a try.

 

Map 9

5  5  5      0  0  0

5  7  1      0 -5  0

5  7  2     -3 -4  0

 

FMF

2  3  3      2  2  1

2  4  4      3  2  2

2  4  4      3  3  3

 

My Map vlxjim

3  4  4     0  0  0

3  5  3    -2 -1  0

3  4  3    -2 -2  0

 

 

.






 
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