2007 YZ450; No oil on dipstick



22 replies to this topic
  • Portmod7

Posted September 15, 2013 - 04:49 PM

#1

Hi guys,

 

I changed my oil the other day before a ride. I followed the manual exactly and this is definitely not my first time doing it. After I filled it with new oil I checked the level and did a pressure check, all was fine. I went and rode without any issues except it puked a little coolant after climbing a big sandy hill for an extended amount of time.  My bike NEVER pukes coolant, but it was a hot muggy day, I was sweating preety bad, and I was riding the hill pretty hard, so I didn't think much of it. I got it out on a road and got some air through the radiator at a moderate pace and got it cooled down.

 

I took the bike to the local sand dunes a few days later and rode for a few hours. It was wanting to get hot and puke a little coolant a couple times and a bit persistantly towards the end of the day. The weather was a little cooler than the previous ride and the bike doing that so much really seemed unusual to me.                                                                                  

 

So today I washed it and attempted to check the oil level, but its not showing ANY oil when I check it according to the manual. It has pressure. It doesnt smoke and there no obvious leaks or mess from the crankcase breather tube. I am 99% sure it must still have the correct amount in it.

 

I ride recreationally but I would say I ride my bike pretty hard when I do ride, especially at the dunes. I am not sure how many hours are on it, but I have had it since new and I probably average 5 or 6 3-hour rides per year? Any ideas why I might not be showing any oil level on the dipstick? 



  • jwleonard

Posted September 15, 2013 - 05:19 PM

#2

Let me start by saying I own a 400 not a 450 and I'm not familiar with which models are dry sump versus wet sump so that may be a factor.  My first thought is that you filled it up with oil then started it and checked for pressure.  Once you had pressure you rode it without checking it again until after you washed it.  If this is the case, then you possibly didn't fill it all the way to start with and once the oil was pumped through out the system the oil stopped showing up when you checked it.  If you changed the filter also then this would be even more pronounced due to removing the oil from there too.  If I'm right then the issues you had would be related to oil starvation at higher RPM & over rough terrain.  So all you can do is fill it the rest of the way and hope you haven't done too much damage to the motor.  Always fill the oil, start & check pressure, check oil again.  Good luck



  • Portmod7

Posted September 15, 2013 - 06:50 PM

#3

Thank you for the reply.

After I drained the oil, I filled it with 1 full quart. I think the manual says 1.06 is the capacity with a filter change. I then ran the engine for several minutes, shut it off, and checked the level. That's the way the factory manual instructs you to check the level. I checked the pressure soon after I started the bike for those several minutes.

  • Decreasing Dave

Posted September 15, 2013 - 10:49 PM

#4

It's a dry sump.  You HAVE to run it for a minute or two to see ANY oil on the dipstick.

 

Forgive me if I'm missing something but you even posted that this is what it said in the manual, that means EVERY TIME you check the oil, not just the first time.

 

Dave



  • Portmod7

Posted September 16, 2013 - 06:36 AM

#5

I guess maybe I didn't explain myself correctly. I do it by the manual, EVERY TIME. I am a very meticulous and methodical person. I changed the grips recently and I checked the manual for instructions and a glue type specification. I don't hardly pull the seat off to theck the air cleaner without opening the manual to get the proper torque specs for the seat bolts. So yes, EVERY time I check the oil level, I run the engine for at least 3 minutes before I try to check the level.

That's why I am so baffled, I am doing everything the way the manual instructs, and I've sucessfully checked the oil many, MANY times. Only now am I having any problems with the oil level. The only thing that makes sense to me is that something has changed inside the motor. Is it simple or is it extensive, that's what I'm trying to figure out. The bike still runs, it hasn't seazed or started blowing smoke, which leads me to believe/hope it's something simple. I have the Ready Racing filter cover, so I thought maybe I got the filter in backwards, but since I have oil pressure I don't think that's the case. Plus, like I said, the first time I checked the oil after the oil change, all was well.

I thought maybe there was a common trend for this to occur and a reason why it does. If I don't get any ideas off the forum in a day or two I'll probably go through the oil change process again and see if it changes the scenario any. I will definitely say that I don't trust the Ready Racing filter cover, without the projection off the inside of the cover that centers the filter in the housing and keeps you from installing it backwards it leaves doubt in my mind that the filter is installed correctly. But, I've been running it for several years now with no issues.

Thanks Guys!



  • NitrousR1

Posted September 16, 2013 - 03:39 PM

#6

I'd just do the oil change again and measure how much comes out. It sounds like you put some hours on this oil change anyways. How many hours do you think the bike has on it?

  • Portmod7

Posted September 16, 2013 - 04:30 PM

#7

I'd just do the oil change again and measure how much comes out. It sounds like you put some hours on this oil change anyways. How many hours do you think the bike has on it?

I think that's the plan. I really have no idea how many hours I have on this bike. My rides probably average 3 hours, I probably average 5 rides a year, and I've had it for 5 or 6 years. I'm about 1/4 of the way through my 3rd rear tire, but I ride a lot of sand. Maybe 100 hours or so? I wouldn't think too much could be wrong, but I do get to feeling guilty after I've been to the dunes, I beat on it pretty good there.

 

Thanks for the help so far guys. If anyone else has a theory I would be glad to hear it.



  • NitrousR1

Posted September 16, 2013 - 04:36 PM

#8

You should start thinking about a piston soon. I do mine anywhere from 80-100 and mine gets run hard too. I feel like I'm running on borrowed time if I go over. You could push it farther but compare what a piston costs and how much a full rebuild costs. I'd do a piston kit with a new timing chain- I recommend replacing every year and write one up every valve clearance I do

  • Portmod7

Posted September 17, 2013 - 06:00 AM

#9

You should start thinking about a piston soon. I do mine anywhere from 80-100 and mine gets run hard too. I feel like I'm running on borrowed time if I go over. You could push it farther but compare what a piston costs and how much a full rebuild costs. I'd do a piston kit with a new timing chain- I recommend replacing every year and write one up every valve clearance I do

I will have to take a look at that. There's probably many other things I should be doing too. When will they come out with the maintenance free bike? I JUST WANNA RIDE!!



  • crf450319

Posted September 18, 2013 - 07:10 AM

#10

I find it odd that someone's who states "I am a very meticulous and methodical person" wouldn't spend $30 on an hour meter ? Not trying to dig on you or anything like that, just seems strange to me..

 

I used to run my pistons for 100 hours, but ended up with ring float and damaged my cylinder. Now I replace my piston/rings at 70 hours, cam chain gets replaced every 50 hours. Every cam chain I've replaced has had links that bind, they're about $20... cheap insurance.

 

I'd try a compression & leak down test.



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  • grayracer513

Posted September 18, 2013 - 09:05 AM

#11

Every cam chain I've replaced has had links that bind, they're about $20... cheap insurance.

 

 

I'm curious about this particular problem, and I'm gathering info about it whenever I hear of it or see it, so I will ask, what oil do you use?



  • crf450319

Posted September 18, 2013 - 10:30 AM

#12

I'm curious about this particular problem, and I'm gathering info about it whenever I hear of it or see it, so I will ask, what oil do you use?

 

I've always used Amsoil MC-F, I'm on my 2nd 2009 yz450f and ran MCF in my first yz as well. I changed my first cam chain back in 2010 at 60.9 hours (bike had been bought new, I put the hour meter on before it had ever been run), I remember that chain having 7 links or more that were binding which is why i dropped my replacement time down to 50 hours.

 

Oct 22/10   New OEM cam chain @ 60.9 hours

Oct 15/11    Replaced top end, new OEM cylinder and cam chain (48.9) @ 109.8 hrs

 

New 2009 yz450 bought in Jan 2012 - put old hour meter on new bike, hour meter displayed 124 hours at the time.

 

August 10/12  New cam chain @169.4 hrs (45 hrs)

December 2012   New piston/rings @ 194 hours  (70 hrs) - no cam chain

August 13/13  New cam chain @222.4 hrs (53 hrs)

 

I realize that I probably replace my cam chain more often than most people out there, but for $20 I'd rather have peace of mind. I ride/race MX only at a Vet A/B pace.



  • NitrousR1

Posted September 18, 2013 - 10:43 AM

#13

I've been replacing them annually myself as well, just too cheap and easy to do to chance it failing. I replace them when i check the valve clearances. Mine come out ever so slightly stretched but never have kinked links.

  • grayracer513

Posted September 18, 2013 - 01:25 PM

#14

I've always used Amsoil MC-F

 

The thing I find curious is that you are using what I consider to be one of the two best available oils on the market, and change it at realistic intervals, yet you have found binding links in your cam chain.  I use either MCF (or MCV in the really hot weather), or Mobil1 Racing 4T (V-Twin in the hot weather months), and have no such trouble.  I do replace the cam chain about every 18 months because it's just good maintenance, as you pointed out.  I was doing them annually, but I stopped when it became obvious it wasn't needed; none of the chains I was removing had worn appreciably, nor did any of them have any stiff links.  I had thought this was oil related because I found the same thing on both bikes, but kept running into kinked chains on other engines where the owner's maintenance regimen was suspect.

 

So...apparently not.



  • crf450319

Posted September 18, 2013 - 02:38 PM

#15

I've gone no more than 7.2 hours on an oil change this year, and have only run MCF, aside from a 5 hour break in period where I ran Torco T4R (semi-syn). I've reduced the frequency of my filter changes to every second oil change, I guess for the same reason you went to an 18 month schedule for your cam chain replacement.

 

April 21/13   Engine oil/filter changed @ 196 hrs (5 hrs) Amsoil MCF

May 17/13   Engine oil/filter changed @ 201.9 hrs (5.9 hrs) Amsoil MCF

June 17/13   Engine oil changed @ 208.3 hrs (6.4 hrs) Amsoil MCF

July 28/13  Engine oil/filter changed @ 215.4 hrs  (7.1 hrs)

August 13/13   Engine oil (no filter) changed @ 222.4 hrs (7 hrs) Amsoil MCF

September 11/13   Engine oil and filter changed @ 229.6 hrs (7.2 hrs) Amsoil MCF

 

The links that bind in the cam chains I've removed don't seem horrible, but there does seem to be a bit of an issue. For the $20, and the added peace of mind I'll keep replacing them every 50 hours..



  • grayracer513

Posted September 18, 2013 - 03:41 PM

#16

I wonder if any of it relates to the difference in how the engine is used between Vet A MX and old guys racing desert scrambles and such.  I'm not going to suggest that it's easier on the engine, exactly, because, well, you should take a nearly stock-geared YZ450 on a flat out run across 1/3 mile of lake bed once (with a running start).  You'll understand.  But still, there's a lot of the 2 hours I spend on the race course that's not like that, too.



  • anarchy67

Posted September 19, 2013 - 07:03 PM

#17

if the oil doesn't show on the dipstick it means add oil until it does. THEN if it doesn't show after a ride or 2. well you got issues. its that simple. oil either leaks or burns. it doesnt just magically disappear



  • grayracer513

Posted September 20, 2013 - 06:37 AM

#18

Actually, there have been reports of this kind of thing that were traced to a hole in the left crankcase forward of the balancer shaft that lead into the oil reservoir.  Appears to have been due to a very thin casting in that area on some engines.  When oil in the "tank" rises above the hole, it runs right back to the crankcase before it can reach the stick.

 

Less dramatic causes are a blocked tank vent line (the braided black hose that runs to the right side cover below the water pump), an obstructed pickup screen in the sump, etc.

 

And, of course, user error.



  • Portmod7

Posted September 20, 2013 - 12:15 PM

#19

I find it odd that someone's who states "I am a very meticulous and methodical person" wouldn't spend $30 on an hour meter ? Not trying to dig on you or anything like that, just seems strange to me..

I agree. I guess more what I meant is, "If/when I take action to complete a task, I do it to the best of my ability with the information/knowledge I have available". It does me, or any of you who take time out of your day to read and help, no good to check the oil without running the engine for three minutes and then come on here and ask why it's not showing on the dipstic.

I really should invest in an hour meter. I treat my bike way too much like my automobile with 180k+ miles on it..... Change the air filter, change the oil, and if it rides good and no abnormal noises, just keep on trucking, she'll let me know if theres a problem. I'm not a riding fanatic or junkie, I just like to take it out once in a while when I need some adrenaline. The weekend is here, I still haven't even touched the bike, and I'm not stressing about having a bike to ride at all.

I've got a buddy that has an 08, has changed the oil 1 time, may have never looked at his air filter, and is 10 times as hard on bikes as I am. That thing is still every bit as strong as mine. It drives me nuts, so I can only imagine that a guy like me drives you guys nuts when I don't follow all of the recommended maintenance intervals verbatim.

 

if the oil doesn't show on the dipstick it means add oil until it does. THEN if it doesn't show after a ride or 2. well you got issues. its that simple. oil either leaks or burns. it doesnt just magically disappear

You would think, wouldn't you? Which is why I'm here.... I'm 99% sure it's not leaking or burning and I just filled it up with what the manual says should be it's capacity, yet it's not showing on the dipstick after it had been previous to the two last rides.

 

Actually, there have been reports of this kind of thing that were traced to a hole in the left crankcase forward of the balancer shaft that lead into the oil reservoir.  Appears to have been due to a very thin casting in that area on some engines.  When oil in the "tank" rises above the hole, it runs right back to the crankcase before it can reach the stick.

 

Less dramatic causes are a blocked tank vent line (the braided black hose that runs to the right side cover below the water pump), an obstructed pickup screen in the sump, etc.

 

And, of course, user error.

 

Thank you gray, this is what I was looking for. If I don't find an easy solution(filter issue?), or user error, I will check out those other possible causes.

 



  • Portmod7

Posted September 20, 2013 - 04:07 PM

#20

Just took another look at her. After I run the bike, there's oil on the dipstick, I assume its from oil entering and moving around in the tank. But when I wipe it off and stick it back in, nothing.

So, It seems oil is moving in the tank while it runs, but once the bike is shut off the oil level is not holding in the tank. I think the next thing I'm going to look at is pulling the balancer cover and looking for the hole in the casting that gray was talking about. Shouldn't be too big a deal to pull the cover I don't think?





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