My WR450 25 pound trim off...

Yamaha WR450F

434 replies to this topic
  • beezer

Posted July 29, 2014 - 08:32 AM


Define 'gutless' and compared to what, a 450? Derp.  :rolleyes:

 

Very thin skin.



  • GP1K

Posted July 29, 2014 - 09:02 AM


Very thin skin.

 

I wasn't aware motorcycles had skin. Please elaborate.



  • MidlifeCrisisGuy

Posted July 29, 2014 - 10:55 AM


You're still forgetting reciprocating mass of the engine. Those 350s will always feel lighter and more nimble than your WR even at the same weight. Picking them up off the ground would feel the same, riding them would not.

 

Try pulling the starter clutch off the WR flywheel.  It makes a big difference.

 

The flip side is that the press says the 350 XCF is a very nervous bike.    I find the WR has really good stability.  If you want the WR to handle faster, decrease the shock race sag or lower the front end by raising the forks in the triple clamps. It makes a big difference too.

 

If you want even less flywheel, one could swap on some YZ parts.   I'm sure the YZ stator would be up for powering the EFI if no lights were involved.


Edited by MidlifeCrisisGuy, July 29, 2014 - 11:19 AM.


  • MidlifeCrisisGuy

Posted July 29, 2014 - 11:01 AM


You also forgot the new KTM 350 are gutless on the bottom.

 

Some people are saying that is a plus, kind of like a 2 stroke ish power band.

 

These threads are interesting reads. 

http://www.dirtbikew...ad.php?t=106241

http://www.enduro360...50-xc-f-review/

http://ultimatemotor...view-road-test/

 

In slick conditions, I'd like to take a bit off the bottom end on my WR.  Its too easy to slip the rear wheel on a slick root. 

 

I'm going to play around with the power band a bit.  A little less engine braking would be interesting as well.   I think YZ cams are in order.


Edited by MidlifeCrisisGuy, July 29, 2014 - 11:16 AM.


  • MidlifeCrisisGuy

Posted July 29, 2014 - 11:12 AM


Lest you think stock KTMs run cool, note that Charlie Mullins' bike runs SX (oversized) radiators with a 30 PSI cap and an electric cooling fan. 

 

He also uses the SX 5 speed transmission rather than the stock 6 speed.

 

http://www.innovatio...ktm-350-xc-f/2/

http://www.dirtrider...s-ktm-350-xc-f/

 

Its too bad that Yamaha doesn't build a special edition WR450F that targets the 350 XCF/ EXC market.  They've got 90% of the parts to do it.  They'd sell a ton of them !

 

Yamaha, PM me if you are listening !  LOL.


Edited by MidlifeCrisisGuy, July 29, 2014 - 11:23 AM.


  • GP1K

Posted July 29, 2014 - 11:13 AM


Try pulling the starter clutch off the WR.  It makes a big difference.

 

The flip side is that the press says the 350 XCF is a very nervous bike.    I find the WR has really good stability.  If you want the WR to handle faster, decrease the shock race sag or lower the front end by raising the forks in the triple clamps. It makes a big difference too.

 

It may close the gap a little, but physics are physics, and you can't ignore them. A body in motion tends to stay in motion. That 450 piston going up and down in your motor wants to keep that bike upright more than a 350 does, no two ways about it. Even at the exact same overall weight, a 350 will always feel lighter than a 450 when riding them.

 

An XC-F doesn't really compete with the WR. It's closer to an MX bike than a trail bike. An XCF-W is a better comparison. But you said your WR has good stability... compared to what? You said you've only been riding a year... so how many other bikes have you ridden in the same conditions to speak of the WRs stability? What is your frame of reference?



  • GP1K

Posted July 29, 2014 - 11:18 AM


Some people are saying that is a plus, kind of like a 2 stroke ish power band.

 

These threads are interesting reads. 

http://www.dirtbikew...ad.php?t=106241

http://www.enduro360...50-xc-f-review/

 

In slick conditions, I'd like to take a bit off the bottom end on my WR.  Its too easy to slip the rear wheel on a slick root. 

 

I'm going to play around with the power band a bit.  A little less engine braking would be interesting as well.   I think YZ cams are in order.

 

Do you have the GTYR FI tuner? You can alter the WR motor's personality A LOT with that tuner. From an MX-like screamer to something closer to a 250 off the bottom. I started out with mine pretty fluffy off the bottom, and as I got used to it added more snap back in. Now it's somewhere in the middle and quite good all around. I'm very close to vxjim's map, and in fact going to try his next.

 

IMO YZ cams aren't the answer unless you're looking for an MX type YZ power band, which is really the opposite of what you want for a woods bike.



  • MidlifeCrisisGuy

Posted July 29, 2014 - 11:29 AM


It may close the gap a little, but physics are physics, and you can't ignore them. A body in motion tends to stay in motion. That 450 piston going up and down in your motor wants to keep that bike upright more than a 350 does, no two ways about it. Even at the exact same overall weight, a 350 will always feel lighter than a 450 when riding them.

 

An XC-F doesn't really compete with the WR. It's closer to an MX bike than a trail bike. An XCF-W is a better comparison. But you said your WR has good stability... compared to what? You said you've only been riding a year... so how many other bikes have you ridden in the same conditions to speak of the WRs stability? What is your frame of reference?

 

Physics is physics.  Inertia varies as RPM^2.  The KTM 350 revs to 13,500 RPM.  The WR makes power at much lower RPM.  I'd say the WR without the starter clutch is much closer than you think, handling wise. 

 

I'm comparing my WR's stabilty to a YZ250F, YZ125 and a KDX220.  I love the way the YZ250F handles and I think my WR is getting close.   My friend hasn't had it out lately, but vows as the 125 is struggling to keep up with the faster bikes in the group.



  • MidlifeCrisisGuy

Posted July 29, 2014 - 11:33 AM


BTW, the swing arm and rear hub got 1.5 pounds lighter when the YZ450F wt to the new swingarm and axle in 2009.

 

"Yamaha’s 12-ounce weight savings is a nice touch, but wait, there’s more. The new rear hub is 265 grams lighter than the 2008 hub. When you add that 265 gram savings to the swingarm’s 350 gram diet, the result is a one-pound, five-ounce reduction in unsprung weight. That’s phenomenal!"

 

This thread has the details. http://motocrossacti...-plus-much-more


Edited by MidlifeCrisisGuy, July 29, 2014 - 11:34 AM.


  • GP1K

Posted July 29, 2014 - 11:35 AM


Lest you think stock KTMs run cool, note that Charlie Mullins' bike runs SX (oversized) radiators with a 30 PSI cap and an electric cooling fan. 

 

He also uses the SX 5 speed transmission rather than the stock 6 speed.

 

http://www.innovatio...ktm-350-xc-f/2/

http://www.dirtrider...s-ktm-350-xc-f/

 

Its too bad that Yamaha doesn't build a special edition WR450F that targets the 350 XCF/ EXC market.  They've got 90% of the parts to do it.  They'd sell a ton of them !

 

Yamaha, PM me if you are listening !  LOL.

 

What a pro like Mullins runs has little to do with what mere mortals run. Can you ride at the same pace in the same conditions Mullins does? If so, then mimicking his setup may be helpful, otherwise you're doing more harm than good.

 

Again, WRs don't really compete with XCF line of bikes, they compete with XCF-Ws. And Yamaha will likely never make a 350F unless there's a specific MX racing class for it. A woods-out YZ-250 (or YZ-300 even) would be far more likely.



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  • stevethe

Posted July 29, 2014 - 11:37 AM


Define 'gutless' and compared to what, a 450? Derp.  :rolleyes:


As in trapped like a rat on a uphill. Three riders try to get the bike up. All come up with the same conclusion. Wimpy no bottom end.

The bike is due for a big bore.

  • GP1K

Posted July 29, 2014 - 11:43 AM


As in trapped like a rat on a uphill. Three riders try to get the bike up. All come up with the same conclusion. Wimpy no bottom end.

The bike is due for a big bore.

 

Or they just need to learn how to ride. Not enough bottom end? Then don't use it, rev it some more. Derp.



  • MidlifeCrisisGuy

Posted July 29, 2014 - 11:48 AM


 And Yamaha will likely never make a 350F unless there's a specific MX racing class for it. A woods-out YZ-250 (or YZ-300 even) would be far more likely.

 

Yamaha doesn't need to make a 350F.  All it needs to do is tweak the WR450F.   It already has a chassis that can compete with the KTM 350.  If you want to get fancy, revive some YZ/WR400 engine parts and make it a WR400F.



  • stevethe

Posted July 29, 2014 - 11:56 AM


Or they just need to learn how to ride. Not enough bottom end? Then don't use it, rev it some more. Derp.


Maybe you can be one of our victims. I'd love to see a "real rider" in the Dog Trap up hill on the 350. Just rev it to show the moon and get lower each time. Never mind the off camber turn in the middle of the hill. It'll be priceless.

Edited by stevethe, July 29, 2014 - 11:57 AM.


  • GP1K

Posted July 29, 2014 - 12:02 PM


Yamaha doesn't need to make a 350F.  All it needs to do is tweak the WR450F.   It already has a chassis that can compete with the KTM 350.  If you want to get fancy, revive some YZ/WR400 engine parts and make it a WR400F.

 

Sorry but if you think the WR can compete with the KTM 350 you're out of your mind. In what type and class of racing exactly? MX? GNCC? WORCS? EnduroCross? Extreme enduros? Why do all the factory Yamaha offroad racers run YZFs then? Racers tend to want light weight, hard hitting power and close ratio trannys... none of which describes the WR.

 

Don't get me wrong, the WR is a great bike. IMO it's by far and away the best trail bike you can buy... from Japan. But it's not the best platform for racing.



  • GP1K

Posted July 29, 2014 - 12:15 PM


Maybe you can be one of our victims. I'd love to see a "real rider" in the Dog Trap up hill on the 350. Just rev it to show the moon and get lower each time. Never mind the off camber turn in the middle of the hill. It'll be priceless.

I suppose if all you ride and your sole judge of a bike's worthiness is hill climbs, then just stick with a 450.



  • Monk

Posted July 29, 2014 - 12:23 PM


Maybe you can be one of our victims. I'd love to see a "real rider" in the Dog Trap up hill on the 350. Just rev it to show the moon and get lower each time. Never mind the off camber turn in the middle of the hill. It'll be priceless.


I would take that challenge, I will be waiting for you at the top...

  • MidlifeCrisisGuy

Posted July 29, 2014 - 01:11 PM


Sorry but if you think the WR can compete with the KTM 350 you're out of your mind. In what type and class of racing exactly? MX? GNCC? WORCS? EnduroCross? Extreme enduros? Why do all the factory Yamaha offroad racers run YZFs then? Racers tend to want light weight, hard hitting power and close ratio trannys... none of which describes the WR.

 

Don't get me wrong, the WR is a great bike. IMO it's by far and away the best trail bike you can buy... from Japan. But it's not the best platform for racing.

Ever heard of a kid named Jedediah Haines ?

 

http://www.kendatire...rambles-title!/

 

 

 

He has a thread about his winning WR on this very forum.  He probably races against a few orange bikes.

 

And, btw, most of the YZs racing off road have WR gearsets in them.

 

Furthermore, the WR450F is a YZ... a YZ250F, which is a pretty decent chassis, with a detuned YZ engine in it.  You can easily make it as YZ as you want.  I bought mine instead of a YZ because I wanted the wide ratio transmission and mellow power.


Edited by MidlifeCrisisGuy, July 29, 2014 - 01:34 PM.


  • stevethe

Posted July 29, 2014 - 01:37 PM


I would take that challenge, I will be waiting for you at the top...


If your in So. Cal your invited !

  • GP1K

Posted July 29, 2014 - 01:43 PM


Ever heard of a kid named Jedediah Haines ?

 

http://www.kendatire...rambles-title!/

 

He has a thread about his winning WR on this very forum.  He probably races against a few orange bikes.

 

And, btw, most of the YZs racing off road have WR gearsets in them.

 

Furthermore, the WR450F is a YZ... a YZ250F, which is a pretty decent chassis, with a detuned YZ engine in it.  You can easily make it as YZ as you want.  I bought mine instead of a YZ because I wanted the wide ratio transmission and mellow power.

 

Ever hear of Kailub Russel or Charlie Mullins? They would be #1 and #2 in GNCC points. Both on KTMs. Next three riders all on Yamahas, all YZFs. I have not heard of WR gearsets in YZFs, and am a bit skeptical. Most racers prefer close ratios, not wide.

 

http://www.racer-res...spoints.asp?s=5

 

It's not a detuned YZF motor. It's the same old WR motor but now with FI. The YZF motor is backwards, the WR is not. Not same at all.


Edited by GP1K, July 29, 2014 - 01:43 PM.






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