Smoothing out the low end power...REPORT


17 replies to this topic
  • Rapper1

Posted July 19, 2013 - 04:14 AM

#1

I have 2003 WR 450F with less than 1,000 miles on it. As you can imagine it is in great shape and for the most part runs great. I have already had the carb cleaned and the bike starts and runs reliably. However, as many of you know, 1st gear hits like a mule and if you happen to be in a tough spot, 1st gear can work against. I know, I know, clutch control is the key and I have been working on 2nd and 3rd gear clutch control when I'm in tight single track and hit helps....BUT I wanted to smooth out the power and make first gear more usable.

Here is the plan: (parts are ordered). Going with the Boyseen Quickshot 3 Accelerator Pump, FMF Jet Kit and a 15 tooth counter sprocket. The goal of all this is to smooth out the hit and throttle response. I will report back in one week with the results. Wish me luck.

  • Krannie McKranface

Posted July 19, 2013 - 04:58 AM

#2

Might I suggest:

Don't waste your time on the quickshot. It will do NOTHING until you re-tune your accelerator pump system.
Read pinned posts at the top regarding un-corking the intake and exhaust, which jets, apump, apump linkage upgrades, and how to time your apump squirt.
FMF jet kits use dynaflow jets, which are not flow tested. Use a JD kit or just buy Keihin jets directly from your dealer.
A 15 tooth sprocket will make first gear start at 12 mph. That means you will be using your clutch more than ever below 12 mph. I don't think that will solve your problem.

If you have throttle control issues, you are better off using a G2 throttle tube called with the mellowest cam profile. That will allow to be less precise with your throttle with less negative results.
Re-jetting the carb also requires opening up the exhuast and intake, otherwise there will be almost no change.

http://www.thumperta...minate-the-bog/

http://www.thumperta...400426450-faqs/

Edited by Krannie, July 19, 2013 - 05:00 AM.


  • n16ht5

Posted July 19, 2013 - 07:00 AM

#3

the only thing you need to do is learn how to use the clutch and trial riding technique. then follow Krannies tips

  • Just_a_trail_rider

Posted July 20, 2013 - 11:39 AM

#4

the only thing you need to do is learn how to use the clutch and trial riding technique. then follow Krannies tips

Ditto!

  • jksull

Posted July 20, 2013 - 06:14 PM

#5

Adding weight to the fly wheel or a heavier clutch will smooth it out also.
I am not one to ride with a finger on the clutch all the time when riding gets slow.

  • Rapper1

Posted July 20, 2013 - 08:15 PM

#6

Might I suggest:

Don't waste your time on the quickshot. It will do NOTHING until you re-tune your accelerator pump system.
Read pinned posts at the top regarding un-corking the intake and exhaust, which jets, apump, apump linkage upgrades, and how to time your apump squirt.
FMF jet kits use dynaflow jets, which are not flow tested. Use a JD kit or just buy Keihin jets directly from your dealer.
A 15 tooth sprocket will make first gear start at 12 mph. That means you will be using your clutch more than ever below 12 mph. I don't think that will solve your problem.

If you have throttle control issues, you are better off using a G2 throttle tube called with the mellowest cam profile. That will allow to be less precise with your throttle with less negative results.
Re-jetting the carb also requires opening up the exhuast and intake, otherwise there will be almost no change.

http://www.thumperta...minate-the-bog/

http://www.thumperta...400426450-faqs/



Well I knew I would get some comments to the contrary, and I appreciate them for sure.. The fact of the matter is this: I may not have explained what is being done correctly even the parts being ordered. BUT I trust my mechanic. He has been in business for 20 years, I have been using him for about 5 on all three of my bikes AND he rides a WR 450. So, I will talk with him more, have him explain exactly what he is doing and ill ask a lot of questions as to why.... He's also the kind of guy that will keep working at something until you, the customer is satisfied, without additional cost. I'll keep you all posted.

  • Krannie McKranface

Posted July 20, 2013 - 09:01 PM

#7

Well I knew I would get some comments to the contrary, and I appreciate them for sure.. The fact of the matter is this: I may not have explained what is being done correctly even the parts being ordered. BUT I trust my mechanic. He has been in business for 20 years, I have been using him for about 5 on all three of my bikes AND he rides a WR 450. So, I will talk with him more, have him explain exactly what he is doing and ill ask a lot of questions as to why.... He's also the kind of guy that will keep working at something until you, the customer is satisfied, without additional cost. I'll keep you all posted.


OK, here I go, 'being an insensitive dick' again.....

1. The Boyseen quick shot device DOES NOT WORK. This has been proven over and over again by the magazines. It is commonly refereed to as 'carb jewelry' by real mechanics.
What it does is mask the problem by increasing the squirt pressure for the first .25 sec of squirt when set at about 1 turn out = approx 40 leak jet size.
It does not take into account the actual problems, which are the linkage spring tension (too soft stock), the timing (which you can adjust) and the squirt duration (determined by leak jet size).
2. If your mechanic thinks it works, that's a big red flag that he does not read service bulletins, magazines, know about JD kits, or do any 'real' carb tuning.
3. Trusting your mechanic is the same as trusting anyone else: if you are not an expert at what he does, who are you to judge his skills? Get some more advice.

This is the basic tuning advice given to all pre- 2005 WR owners:

Remove snorkle on airbox
Remove pea-shooter from exhaust tip or upgrade exhaust
Change jetting to:
165 main
45 pilot
NCVS Needle
40 or 50 leak jet
Merge racing accelerator pump return spring upgrade
Adjust apump squirt timing to always just barely miss the slide (done visually with the subframe lifted up)
Install an R&D remote fuel screw so you can adjust your pilot circuit on the trial (needed)
Unplug the TPS connector (gray one) under the tank
Disconnect the Gray wire from the harness under the left side panel (YZ spec timing for ignition)

If he follows this list (which I did not 'create'; it's from years of reading, trying, and copying other sucessful tunings) you will get fantastic results.

  • Rapper1

Posted July 21, 2013 - 03:30 AM

#8

OK, here I go, 'being an insensitive dick' again.....

1. The Boyseen quick shot device DOES NOT WORK. This has been proven over and over again by the magazines. It is commonly refereed to as 'carb jewelry' by real mechanics.
What it does is mask the problem by increasing the squirt pressure for the first .25 sec of squirt when set at about 1 turn out = approx 40 leak jet size.
It does not take into account the actual problems, which are the linkage spring tension (too soft stock), the timing (which you can adjust) and the squirt duration (determined by leak jet size).
2. If your mechanic thinks it works, that's a big red flag that he does not read service bulletins, magazines, know about JD kits, or do any 'real' carb tuning.
3. Trusting your mechanic is the same as trusting anyone else: if you are not an expert at what he does, who are you to judge his skills? Get some more advice.

This is the basic tuning advice given to all pre- 2005 WR owners:

Remove snorkle on airbox
Remove pea-shooter from exhaust tip or upgrade exhaust
Change jetting to:
165 main
45 pilot
NCVS Needle
40 or 50 leak jet
Merge racing accelerator pump return spring upgrade
Adjust apump squirt timing to always just barely miss the slide (done visually with the subframe lifted up)
Install an R&D remote fuel screw so you can adjust your pilot circuit on the trial (needed)
Unplug the TPS connector (gray one) under the tank
Disconnect the Gray wire from the harness under the left side panel (YZ spec timing for ignition)

If he follows this list (which I did not 'create'; it's from years of reading, trying, and copying other sucessful tunings) you will get fantastic results.


I don't think you are being a "dick" I actually appreciate this information. I had done a search on here, and looked at the FAQ's, etc... in the pinned posts. To be honest, they are mostly a bit above my head. So now I have information from you and information from my mechanic. I will talk with him, ask him about these other options and hear what he has to say.

Any other thoughts on how to smooth out the power in first gear? Going up one tooth on the counter sprocket you think will make 1st worse? Should I think abou the rear sprocket instead? Thank you.

  • Krannie McKranface

Posted July 21, 2013 - 06:20 AM

#9

I don't think you are being a "dick" I actually appreciate this information. I had done a search on here, and looked at the FAQ's, etc... in the pinned posts. To be honest, they are mostly a bit above my head. So now I have information from you and information from my mechanic. I will talk with him, ask him about these other options and hear what he has to say.

Any other thoughts on how to smooth out the power in first gear? Going up one tooth on the counter sprocket you think will make 1st worse? Should I think abou the rear sprocket instead? Thank you.


I don't understand what you mean by 'smooth out the power'.
The power on the WR is not 'rough', so I don't understand.
If you mean make less 'abrupt'. that's all in the wrist.
As mentioned previously, get a g2 throttle tube to replace the stock one, or just practice more.
Gearing it up will require a lot more clutch work, which is even more difficult than throttle control.

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  • KennyMc

Posted July 21, 2013 - 07:59 AM

#10

Rapper, Bill is giving you solid advice from his and other people's experiences with the same bike. I understand your mechanic has a WR450 as well, but just something to keep in mind, he is 1 guy with his own unique riding style. The stickies in the forum offer you opinions/options from multiple resources.

When you talk about smoothing out the power in 1st, do you mean you go through 1st gear "too quickly"? As has been pointed out, IMO, you will get the best results by learning throttle and clutch control. Used in conjunction while navigating tight, twisty single track in the forest or desert will force you to become a better rider. This will help keep the RPM's at a steady, constant rate which "smooths" out the power which in turn leads to better traction control and helps get you through the twist us and another huge benefit, up slippery hillclimbs where traction control is the utmost concern.

Again, we all have our own unique riding styles, I don't ride with 2 fingers on the clutch most of the time but when I come up to a hillclimbs or twisty, tight single track, 2 fingers on the clutch all the time. It became 2nd nature for me.

Enjoy the WR, they are a fun bike!

  • Rapper1

Posted July 21, 2013 - 08:47 AM

#11

I don't understand what you mean by 'smooth out the power'.
The power on the WR is not 'rough', so I don't understand.
If you mean make less 'abrupt'. that's all in the wrist.
As mentioned previously, get a g2 throttle tube to replace the stock one, or just practice more.
Gearing it up will require a lot more clutch work, which is even more difficult than throttle control.


All good advice. A little background. I have been riding off road for almost 20 years now. However, I started on an XT 350 and with that slow, heavy bike I developed the sit and ride approach, as well as clutch in and clutch out, not much inbetween. Now that I have the WR 450, I have to learn a whole new way of riding, in fact, I'm taking a Shane Watts 2 day course next month. In the meantime, I want to "tame" 1st gear. It hits very strong even with smooth throttle. Yes, I know I need to work on clutch control too, that is what I said in my initial post. However, I'm, still looking to smooth out that initial hit. Does that make sense?

  • Krannie McKranface

Posted July 21, 2013 - 05:36 PM

#12

All good advice. A little background. I have been riding off road for almost 20 years now. However, I started on an XT 350 and with that slow, heavy bike I developed the sit and ride approach, as well as clutch in and clutch out, not much inbetween. Now that I have the WR 450, I have to learn a whole new way of riding, in fact, I'm taking a Shane Watts 2 day course next month. In the meantime, I want to "tame" 1st gear. It hits very strong even with smooth throttle. Yes, I know I need to work on clutch control too, that is what I said in my initial post. However, I'm, still looking to smooth out that initial hit. Does that make sense?


Yes, I understand, but, the motor will only do what YOU tell it to do, so throttle control is everything.
You are used to a XT, a slow reving motor, with terrible carbs and terrible throttle response.
Time to re-learn your habits.

Gearing up will absolutely slow down the motor. It will also mean slipping the clutch a whole lot more.

I suggest you find a vacant lot or field near your house, and practice going as slow as you can in as tight a confines as you can.

  • revyrider

Posted July 22, 2013 - 06:24 AM

#13

Somebody's gotta say it - Rekluse auto clutch!!

  • n16ht5

Posted July 22, 2013 - 06:33 AM

#14

that would be like putting a band aid on a broken arm.

  • Rapper1

Posted July 22, 2013 - 11:35 AM

#15

that would be like putting a band aid on a broken arm.


Thanks Chris for the compliment.... Hopefully not "broken" for long after the Shane Watts course and lots of practice. I'll report back on the bike in a week.

Edited by Rapper1, July 22, 2013 - 11:38 AM.


  • n16ht5

Posted July 22, 2013 - 04:59 PM

#16

I didn't mean to be rude, sorry! I rode the same way for a long time until I rode with linolnlock who showed me how to really use my levers and bike the right way. I was a better rider overnight once I figured out how to run the clutch. I still use it with the rekluse

  • Rapper1

Posted July 26, 2013 - 05:38 PM

#17

I just got my bike back this afternoon and after a short ride can report out on the affect the changes had on my bike's performance. First, I had an FMF power up jet kit installed. A Boyseen Quickshot 3. And I went from the 14 tooth stock counter sprocket to a 15 tooth counter sprocket.

The intent was to smooth out the low end hit, make the bike easier to ride in the tighter single track stuff as well as smooth the throttle response. I know I had some advice above that said I should avoid doing all of what I had said I was going to do, but I went ahead anyway and made these changes. The reasoning was that my mechanic knows my bike, knows my riding style and knows the terrain that I ride. I also have never been let down by him either.

So with that, the jetting probably had the biggest affect on the the throttle, although it is hard to say for sure, but the bike has no hesitation to throttle input and when riding at a steady speed, the throttle no longer surges. There is also no popping on decel, nor bogging down.


The counter sprocket took some of the hit away from first gear which makes low speed riding more predictable. I also think that riding in second and third I can really "tractor" the bike now and maintain grip. I did notice that the bike had a little go at higher speeds and I had to down shift in places where I did not have to before. However, this bike still have plenty of power. I will really ride it tomorrow and will report more back then. Thank you everyone for all your help.

  • Rapper1

Posted July 27, 2013 - 04:29 PM

#18

Took the WR out this afternoon for a 30 mile ride on class 4 roads, some some single track and dirt roads inbetween. The conditions ranged from rock, gravel, sand, dry hard packed dirt and some mud. In Vermont it seems you go up more than you go down, so there were several elevation changes as well.

With the new 15 tooth counter sprocket I could comfortably go 18-20 mph in 2nd gear. First was much more usable and allowed me to ride a little slower. The engine just tractors through anything with excellent traction. I could see how most would like the stock 14 tooth, as you seem to always be in the sweet spot of the revs, but I felt I was constantly accelerating, rather than sticking within a usable gear/speed.

Crawling, I mean below 5 mph will require more clutch than before, but that is a tradeoff. I'm going to focus on suspension next...




 
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