Does my 07' need a battery to run properly? (Stator / CDI question)

[SJMC_DON]

A little background -

• I searched the forum and did not find the definitive answer I was looking for.
  
• I was once a regular in this forum for years, (hello to all the OG's), I am currently riding my 5th WR4XXf and like to think I know my around them to a certain degree.
  
• My bike is an 07' WR450 and has the Trail Tech 100W Stator & R/R kit installed. This is the 2nd such kit installed, the first one lasted about 4 years running HID and stock lighting systems. When that kit failed I had the ground float mod done on the stock stator and ran the BD R/R with success for about a year until this last spring when once again the battery went dead out on the trail and the bike would not even kick start. I condemned the stator and/or regulator without really testing either component and just ordered a new Trail Tech 100W kit....
  
• In both cases mentioned above where the charging system failed, the battery went totally dead and I could not even kick start the bike.
  
• I have a Ballistic battery.... (It's a very bad ass battery that will take and hold a charge just fine).
  
• The bike, with the battery connected, currently runs and starts great.
  

To my question - The bike has been sitting since end of April. I charged the battery and installed the new Trail Tech kit this past weekend. The bike fired up and ran great, my DC charging voltage was in spec at various RPM's. SO.........My limited pea brain logic tells me that I should disconnect the positive battery cable and if the bike continues to run then everything is good right? Well.... apparently not. The lights and motor die so I unplug the head light, hook the battery back up and re-start the bike. This time when I unhook the battery the bike runs, (w/o headlight connected), but is sputtering and the dash is flickering as well as the little red LED on the ignition switch.

To my question - Does the CDI need the DC voltage stored in the battery for the bike to run properly?

More background -

• I went through Trail Tech's troubleshooting guide and everything from the Stator and R/R checkout good, (Stator A/C output, Stator resistance, charging voltage, etc....).
  
• I called Trail Tech tech support today and asked point blank, "Does the bike need a battery to run properly?" and his reply was, "well...... not really, it shouldn't" and then he gave me a resistance spec on the ignition output from the stator. I got home tonight and it is in spec (290 ohms +/- 10 Ohms)
  
• I checked the DC voltage at the ignition output of the stator (Red and White wires) and both wires red less than 1 volt DC to ground but then my pea brain logic kikcs in again and I am thinking that this does not pass through the rectifier so how can it be DC voltage?....
  
• I have searched the WR forums and I am reading differing opinions as to whether the bike needs a battery to run correctly. Some say that you cannot simply eliminate the battery without putting some type of capacitor in the DC circuit?
  
• I discharged the battery to 9.5 volts using a light as the load... the bike would understandably not e-start but it kick started right up, ran great and the battery charged up in no time at all.
  

Can anyone confirm that these bikes must have a battery in them with at least a little bit of voltage to run correctly?

Thanks in advance!

Don

[miweber929]

They need a battery (or other device) that will keep a voltage to run and it must be in and complete the circuit. Pretty much all cycles don't work like a car in that regard.

The battery can be dead, but not bad.

[FORMA MOTO]

No battery = open circuit

Same with bad battery / fully dead (0 v) battery

You can purchase a battery eliminator

Edited June 26, 2013 by Krannie

[SJMC_DON]

Thanks guys.

I am not looking to eliminate the battery but I understand the design now.

So for curiosity's sake - What do the red and white wires from the stator do? The trail tech person called this the "Ignition Trigger"... the bike ran with it unplugged while I checked voltage.

Thaks again!

[Chas_M]

For most carburated bikes, the battery is there primarily for E starting. The engine should kick start and run fine with a dead battery or even without a battery.

[miweber929]

For most carburated bikes, the battery is there primarily for E starting. The engine should kick start and run fine with a dead battery or even without a battery.

But the WR will not, at least without; it needs a battery (or other power storage source) to complete the electrical system and run. Remove your battery Chas_M and see if it will run, it won't if its a 03 and newer WR.

[redsqwrl]

I am not wanting to jump in a pissy match, however I discovered today that I am not ready to head to CO. 99 WR sprouted a accelerator pump leak and the 07' decided to show me why the display is flaky.

to this thread.... My 07' WR 450 F Stock with a homemade Lighting kit runs fine with out a battery. I rode three short errands in regards to the accel pump. when I left last stop for a cheese burger all was good. very short commute 2 miles to the cheese burger had to kick the bike to start as the battery gave it up right there would not even light up the display.

Drove to a buddys auto repair and threw a meter on it. Charging 7.36-8.2 V dc. would not light a test light. ( string or swear words here) Battery off voltage matched the running voltage.

Drove to my house (by kicking it to life) charge voltage on my meter same except battery is now stone dead. 0V not running.

took battery straight to store bought new battery. upon return I Kicked bike to life (With no battery installed)tested voltage. voltage was same as above. sinking feeling in gut that my CO trip is going to be a crap show of stupid. hooked up battery and it regulated to raise the voltage just like it should.

My point is I feel both posters are right. Stock WRs; at least mine has a dual circuit. one runs ign, the other head and tail and charge. I run my head and tail AC. I run my turns and brakes DC. For What it is worth my display is now full bright and nice and dark text in the display. I think this battery was flaky all along. and Ironically it started each and every time I needed it to. I ran the urine out of the bike today lots of idleing and short trips and many starts. battery 12.74 or higher off, Running 14.2-14.57 I will be on the road for the rest of the week.

Oh and a Accel from a random honda fits with some grinding..... indepentant bike shop found a unknown diaphram to at least have something in the bowl.

CO here we come

[miweber929]

I am not wanting to jump in a pissy match, however I discovered today that I am not ready to head to CO. 99 WR sprouted a accelerator pump leak and the 07' decided to show me why the display is flaky.

to this thread.... My 07' WR 450 F Stock with a homemade Lighting kit runs fine with out a battery. I rode three short errands in regards to the accel pump. when I left last stop for a cheese burger all was good. very short commute 2 miles to the cheese burger had to kick the bike to start as the battery gave it up right there would not even light up the display.

Drove to a buddys auto repair and threw a meter on it. Charging 7.36-8.2 V dc. would not light a test light. ( string or swear words here) Battery off voltage matched the running voltage.

Drove to my house (by kicking it to life) charge voltage on my meter same except battery is now stone dead. 0V not running.

took battery straight to store bought new battery. upon return I Kicked bike to life (With no battery installed)tested voltage. voltage was same as above. sinking feeling in gut that my CO trip is going to be a crap show of stupid. hooked up battery and it regulated to raise the voltage just like it should.

My point is I feel both posters are right. Stock WRs; at least mine has a dual circuit. one runs ign, the other head and tail and charge. I run my head and tail AC. I run my turns and brakes DC. For What it is worth my display is now full bright and nice and dark text in the display. I think this battery was flaky all along. and Ironically it started each and every time I needed it to. I ran the urine out of the bike today lots of idleing and short trips and many starts. battery 12.74 or higher off, Running 14.2-14.57 I will be on the road for the rest of the week.

Oh and a Accel from a random honda fits with some grinding..... indepentant bike shop found a unknown diaphram to at least have something in the bowl.

CO here we come

But the entire time you had a battery in there.

The op's question is does it need a battery and while it doesn't need a good battery, it needs something.

[Do I Care?]

Not to join the debating team but-

It has nothing to do with whether or not you have a circuit. The main earth is still grounded....

It would depend on whether or not the stator has the charging ability to run the ignition coil and all lighting components. If it does have the capacity (it should have), the bike will run without the battery as the power generated from the AC magneto goes through the rectifier and runs into the same circuit as the battery (it does not need to complete the circuit using the battery as it is spliced/bridged), meaning that the AC magneto (stator) will be generating the power needed to run all electrical components. Without the battery it will cause components (that usually use the battery) to light up dim.

Of course- the electric start will not work without the battery.

So the correct answer would be YES it will run without the battery but will not start using the electric start and kick-starting would be needed. In addition, the lighting components (that usually use the battery) will be dim.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Barra8

[miweber929]

Not to join the debating team but-

It has nothing to do with whether or not you have a circuit. The main earth is still grounded....

It would depend on whether or not the stator has the charging ability to run the ignition coil and all lighting components. If it does have the capacity (it should have), the bike will run without the battery as the power generated from the AC magneto goes through the rectifier and runs into the same circuit as the battery (it does not need to complete the circuit using the battery as it is spliced/bridged), meaning that the AC magneto (stator) will be generating the power needed to run all electrical components. Without the battery it will cause components (that usually use the battery) to light up dim.

Of course- the electric start will not work without the battery.

So the correct answer would be YES it will run without the battery but will not start using the electric start and kick-starting would be needed. In addition, the lighting components (that usually use the battery) will be dim.

Since you are so good at debating and like to jump in and contradict real world information, go out and pull the battery on your 03+ WR, (try to) kick start it and see how well it runs.

Then come back and tell us your results and if you still stand by your statements.

A "power source" is needed to complete the electrical circuit on these bikes to run the CDI. Correct, it doesn't HAVE to be a charged battery, it could be a capacitor or a non-charged, but still functional, battery but it will not run correctly without it.

Mike

Edited July 7, 2013 by miweber929

[Do I Care?]

Since you are so good at debating and like to jump in and contradict real world information, go out and pull the battery on your 03+ WR, (try to) kick start it and see how well it runs.

Then come back and tell us your results and if you still stand by your statements.

A "power source" is needed to complete the electrical circuit on these bikes to run the CDI. Correct, it doesn't HAVE to be a charged battery, it could be a capacitor or a non-charged, but still functional, battery but it will not run correctly without it.

Mike

Bla bla bla see here....

https://www.thumpertalk.com/topic/900876-kickstart-lever-sounds-partially-engaged/

Enough said.

Enjoy!

[miweber929]

Bla bla bla see here....

https://www.thumpertalk.com/topic/900876-kickstart-lever-sounds-partially-engaged/

Enough said.

Enjoy!

Ug, really? That's your source, some random dude saying he removed the Estart and battery with NO other info like maybe he has a cap in there?

Seriously, please people don't listen to this guy or at the very least be wary of what he's saying. He has a smattering of knowledge but no comprehension of the way things really work on these bikes which is the worst kind of Internet mechanic. I've tried being nice, I've tried pointing out actually trying some of the stuff he's saying, I've even mentioned it to mods and it gets nowhere so you're on your own if you listen to him.

[Do I Care?]

Ug, really? That's your source, some random dude saying he removed the Estart and battery with NO other info like maybe he has a cap in there?

Seriously, please people don't listen to this guy or at the very least be wary of what he's saying. He has a smattering of knowledge but no comprehension of the way things really work on these bikes which is the worst kind of Internet mechanic. I've tried being nice, I've tried pointing out actually trying some of the stuff he's saying, I've even mentioned it to mods and it gets nowhere so you're on your own if you listen to him.

It was not my evidence as I looked at the wiring diagram. Maybe you should sometime?? I will leave that question up to you though.

[miweber929]

It was not my evidence as I looked at the wiring diagram. Maybe you should sometime?? I will leave that question up to you though.

Looked at the diagram, but do you understand? I'm an electrical engineer so i do understand AND have real world knowledge: I physically removed the battery and tried to kick start my 04, it didn't start. I put the battery in and wham, first kick it started. As well the bike quit on a trail late last year and wouldn't run, why? Bad cell in the battery; new battery and been running perfect since.

You?

Barra8, based on your sig bikes your knowledge of newer designs is limited, the WR400/426 (and XL185's and TTR's as well) are not the same as the 03-up WR's. Do yourself a favor and learn about these bikes before telling someone WRONG info on something you don't know anything about.

Good day to you, sir.

Edited July 7, 2013 by miweber929

[Do I Care?]

Looked at the diagram, but do you understand? I'm an electrical engineer so i do understand AND have real world knowledge: I physically removed the battery and tried to kick start my 04, it didn't start. I put the battery in and wham, first kick it started. As well the bike quit on a trail late last year and wouldn't run, why? Bad cell in the battery; new battery and been running perfect since.

You?

Barra8, based on your sig bikes your knowledge of newer designs is limited, the WR400/426 (and XL185's and TTR's as well) are not the same as the 03-up WR's. Do yourself a favor and learn about these bikes before telling someone WRONG info on something you don't know anything about.

Good day to you, sir.

Lol, you have no knowledge of who I am and what I have done let alone a wiring diagram (as far as anyone knows). I would like to see you colour code a diagram stating AC voltage an what runs off DC what voltages and what everything does as you seem to think you know everything. This must not be a big task for someone of your expertise ?

[miweber929]

Lol, you have no knowledge of who I am and what I have done let alone a wiring diagram (as far as anyone knows). I would like to see you colour code a diagram stating AC voltage an what runs off DC what voltages and what everything does as you seem to think you know everything. This must not be a big task for someone of your expertise ?

You wanna get into the AC/DC thing on these bikes again, how'd the last time turn out for ya? I thought you knew for a FACT the headlight was DC on the WR's?

Sigh.

Dude, I'm done. I've said my peace. Heaven help anyone who allows you to work in their bikes in person then or listens online to your troubleshooting advice.

[Do I Care?]

You wanna get into the AC/DC thing on these bikes again, how'd the last time turn out for ya? I thought you knew for a FACT the headlight was DC on the WR's?

Sigh.

Dude, I'm done. I've said my peace. Heaven help anyone who allows you to work in their bikes in person then or listens online to your troubleshooting advice.

Lol a headlight running off AC is all you have achieved in your ''electrical engineering career'', my god!

Oh yeah, I already know your rave and rant - ''The headlight and taillight runs off AC, everything else just ''magically'' works off DC and with that you are done'' (for) lol?

It's like Me- what is a trigger circuit? Reply- ''It's a circuit that clowns ride around with guns?''....Far from the truth, it is actually a little Smurf that runs up the and taps on the ignition coil with a hammer to tell it when to fire. ?

Or like Me- what is a pulser? Reply- ''Don't you mean Nissan Pulsar?''?

You obviously have no clue of how anything works (oh wait, the magical Smurf's of course).

Anyway- enough said.

Enjoy!

Edited July 7, 2013 by Barra8

[SJMC_DON]

You guys need to ride more and spend some more time away from the keyboards.... Arguing on the internet is like the special olympics, even if you win you are still retarded.

(OK I'm just being a smart ass.... but I will cite my real world experiences).

Barra - I would suggest trying the functional test miweber is suggesting as my bike will NOT run without a battery in it.... My stator AC output is spot on as is my DC charging voltage. I just completed a full day of Dual Sport riding on the 4th and ran lights all day, when I parked at the end of the day the battery was fully charged. No AC on the bike now that I have the Trail Tech kit in it.

Edited July 8, 2013 by SJMC_DON

[Do I Care?]

I had a look at how the Trailtech Reg/Rec is set-up and yes- it WILL NOT run without a battery. This is because the charging circuit does not join to the ignition circuit (in other words, it is a dual circuit). Not so sure if this is the best idea as if the stator burnt out or the battery went flat, the bike would not run at all.

As released from factory- the charging circuit joins to the ignition circuit so it WILL run without the battery but will make the lights dim (as mentioned in my first post).

Standard the lights run off AC power, but with the Trailtech wiring schematics they run off DC.

However- the problem is that Mike miweber929 says the lights run off AC (in another thread) with no reference to whether he is talking about factory or Trailtech (the question was about a Trailtech). I also asked him what a ''pulser'' was but the reply was '' the lights run off AC everything else runs off DC and with that, I'm done''. I just don't believe that he has any understanding of a standard system, let alone a Trailtech as he cannot explain anything properly. For someone who claims to know everything and be an ''electrical engineer'', he has not explained anything.

Hope this has cleared up all misunderstanding.

Enjoy!

Edited July 9, 2013 by Barra8

[miweber929]

I had a look at how the Trailtech Reg/Rec is set-up and yes- it will not run without a battery. This is because the lighting circuit does not join to the charging circuit (dual circuit). Not so sure if this is the best idea as if the stator burnt out, the bike would not run at all.

As released from factory- the charging circuit joins to the lighting circuit so it WILL run without the battery but will make the lights dim (as mentioned in my first post).

Standard the lights run off AC power, but with the Trailtech Reg/Rec they run off DC.

However- the problem is that Mike miweber929 says the lights run off AC (in another thread) with no reference to whether he is talking about factory or Trailtech (the question was about a Trailtech). I also asked him what a ''pulser'' was but the reply was '' the lights run off AC everything else runs off DC and with that, I'm done''. I just don't believe that he has any understanding of a standard system, let alone a Trailtech as he cannot explain anything properly. For someone who claims to know everything and be an ''electrical engineer'', he has not explained anything.

Hope this has cleared up all misunderstanding.

Enjoy!

Barra, enough. I've not claimed to know anything about anything except how the electrical system on the WR works and again, I'm right. Backtrack, talk circles, come up with whatever excuse you want but you are still wrong. I told you to try it, you didn't and are proved wrong. As well, Trail Tech stator or stock the OP's question is WILL THE BIKE RUN WITHOUT A BATTERY; the answer: no. Nothing about lights, AC or DC or anything else was asked, your reading comprehension is severely lacking, sorry to say and you long rant still talking about it completely off the topic at hand.

Again, try your own advice, an 03+ won't start without something in the circuit. A battery is the best thing, but a properly sized cap will work as well.

I've not explained the charging system because I shouldn't have to and refuse to stoop to your level and badgering. So I've not explained it wrong, I've just not explained it to you, so again you're wrong. Your "magic smurf" weird third person explanation above proves just how much you know. Or how little. And I only mentioned my electronics background once in all my posts on here in hopes you'll start to realize you may not know what you think you do and stop, I guess not.

OP, glad its worked out for you, and sorry this got derailed but at least you got the right info in the end. I've informed the mods before of his wrong advice; not poor, not mistaken, but flat out wrong information that can cost people broken equipment and so far they've done nothing so I wanted to not have you have you suffer fools advice and needlessly get frustrated and maybe blow money on things not broken.

Mike