Wanted: patient people to help me with my 2k WR



27 replies to this topic
  • steveaz

Posted December 14, 2003 - 09:28 AM

#1

First let me say I have read, printed, and highlighted many posts and would like to thank all of you that have and will (I hope :D) contribute to my cause. I now believe that with some guidance I can get my WR dialed and performing to my expectations. But now that I've read so much, I'm more confused than when I started :) so please bare with me and any and all help will be greatly appreciated.

My situation. In 2000 I bought myself the WR, my son a TTR-90, and my wife a TTR-225. My son and I rode quite a bit for the next year and a half with my wife joining us occasionally. We then took up some other interests and didn't ride much. So the WR sat for the last year. Recently I started making preperations to my R1 for track duty which seems to have gotten my wife interested in riding again :D but she wanted a new bike, a quad this time. NO PROBLEM, so we got her a 400EX and my son a CR-85 (I know, but the suspension and brakes SUCK on the smaller 4 strokes and we go to the track some times). With that, the WR is breathing new life...I hope!

When I put the WR in storage I added fuel treatment and when I took it out I drained the fuel, replaced the spark plug (NKG TR8E gapped to .78mm) and replaced the air filter (UNI). So far no start. I then verified spark (spark plug on the frame) and started cleaning out the carb with carb cleaner (It was coated inside with a yellowish film). I removed the top of the carb, inspected and cleaned with carb cleaner. Then removed the bottom and did the same. I didn't remove the jets, just sprayed carb cleaner and allowed it to drain. Put it all back together...no change. I suspect I need to do a more thorough job on the carb and plan on going back at it tonight.

Now, there are a few mods I want to make along the way as my riding buddy has since upgraded to a YZ450 and I'm going to need all the help I can get.

The changes and upgrades I'd like to make.

-Remove the "octopus"
-"The Taffy Mod", is that the grey wire and is it not present on some years? Looks like many of you have made this mod...what does it do.
-YZ timing
-Airbox cover, does that just entail removing the top with the 2 square holes and leaving it off with no other mods?
-White Brothers E series exhaust and head pipe. I have already purchased a used one (unsure whether it's a pro or s-bend and didn't know there was a difference at the time) but it should be here any day. So I'll be putting that on as well, any way to tell which head pipe it has, I'm assuming it'll make a difference with final setup up.

Any other suggestions, I want this thing to rip but don't want to get into the engine much as I don't have any experience with that stuff. I'm sure I'll have lots of questions and would like to get started on the right foot so any help is greatly appreciated. BTW my riding elevation is 1500-4000ft and is a hodge podge of track, trails, and soon to be dunes.

Oh, one other question someone may have experience with. On my sons CR85, that thing has like NO bottom end and the second you get enough power to take off, you're into the powerband. I can not take off with this thing without doing a wheelie. Any suggestions, I've read something about adding a couple exhaust spacers to lengthen the head tube? I also planned on experimenting with gearing a little.


Thanks guys!

  • RichBaker

Posted December 14, 2003 - 09:42 AM

#2

You definitely need to clean the carb again, pull the jets this time and make sure they're clean...DON'T poke any steel thru them, copper wire is safe, but anything that could burr the jet is bad. Spray carb cleaner thru all the passages and make sure you can see a nice stream coming out from somewhere. The small jets tend to clog easily, and it's a PITA if you don't get them clear. Sometimes it helps to soak them, Berrymans makes a good dip solution and they include a basket for the parts.

  • r1superstar

Posted December 14, 2003 - 09:45 AM

#3

First let me say I have read, printed, and highlighted many posts and would like to thank all of you that have and will (I hope :D) contribute to my cause. I now believe that with some guidance I can get my WR dialed and performing to my expectations. But now that I've read so much, I'm more confused than when I started :) so please bare with me and any and all help will be greatly appreciated.

My situation. In 2000 I bought myself the WR, my son a TTR-90, and my wife a TTR-225. My son and I rode quite a bit for the next year and a half with my wife joining us occasionally. We then took up some other interests and didn't ride much. So the WR sat for the last year. Recently I started making preperations to my R1 for track duty which seems to have gotten my wife interested in riding again :D but she wanted a new bike, a quad this time. NO PROBLEM, so we got her a 400EX and my son a CR-85 (I know, but the suspension and brakes SUCK on the smaller 4 strokes and we go to the track some times). With that, the WR is breathing new life...I hope!

When I put the WR in storage I added fuel treatment and when I took it out I drained the fuel, replaced the spark plug (NKG TR8E gapped to .78mm) and replaced the air filter (UNI). So far no start. I then verified spark (spark plug on the frame) and started cleaning out the carb with carb cleaner (It was coated inside with a yellowish film). I removed the top of the carb, inspected and cleaned with carb cleaner. Then removed the bottom and did the same. I didn't remove the jets, just sprayed carb cleaner and allowed it to drain. Put it all back together...no change. I suspect I need to do a more thorough job on the carb and plan on going back at it tonight.

Now, there are a few mods I want to make along the way as my riding buddy has since upgraded to a YZ450 and I'm going to need all the help I can get.

The changes and upgrades I'd like to make.

-Remove the "octopus"
-"The Taffy Mod", is that the grey wire and is it not present on some years? Looks like many of you have made this mod...what does it do.
-YZ timing
-Airbox cover, does that just entail removing the top with the 2 square holes and leaving it off with no other mods?
-White Brothers E series exhaust and head pipe. I have already purchased a used one (unsure whether it's a pro or s-bend and didn't know there was a difference at the time) but it should be here any day. So I'll be putting that on as well, any way to tell which head pipe it has, I'm assuming it'll make a difference with final setup up.

Any other suggestions, I want this thing to rip but don't want to get into the engine much as I don't have any experience with that stuff. I'm sure I'll have lots of questions and would like to get started on the right foot so any help is greatly appreciated. BTW my riding elevation is 1500-4000ft and is a hodge podge of track, trails, and soon to be dunes.

Oh, one other question someone may have experience with. On my sons CR85, that thing has like NO bottom end and the second you get enough power to take off, you're into the powerband. I can not take off with this thing without doing a wheelie. Any suggestions, I've read something about adding a couple exhaust spacers to lengthen the head tube? I also planned on experimenting with gearing a little.


Thanks guys!


WR problems: Carb is probably still dirty. Always clean everything especially when it has been sitting for a very long time.

CR85 problems: It's a two-smoke. You need a heavier flywheel, and an aftermarket exhaust pipe to compensate for the heavier flywheel. Change the reeds too.

  • steveaz

Posted December 14, 2003 - 01:55 PM

#4

Thanks!

Kind of figured I was going to need to disassemble the carb and clean it. It just makes me :D, although I feel a little better about it now. I went and got some Berrymens so I'll have at it again tonight, hopefully that'll get me going and then we can move on to the fun stuff :)

Anyone got some clarification on the octopus thing and the gray wire? I suppose I should wait until it's running like it used to before doing much but I sure would like to get all those dang tubes out of there. :D

R1superstar, what are ya doing with that R1? Any racin or stuntin? I'll look into the mods you mentioned for the CR, I'm definately going to have to get a little help with that one, up until 2 days ago, I'd never even mixed gas, let alone worked on a bike that required it :D

Gotta do something soon though, he gets it for Christmas and I'm afraid he's going to loop it right out of the gate. Maybe I'll make him start in second gear :D

  • r1superstar

Posted December 14, 2003 - 06:15 PM

#5

Thanks!

Kind of figured I was going to need to disassemble the carb and clean it. It just makes me :D, although I feel a little better about it now. I went and got some Berrymens so I'll have at it again tonight, hopefully that'll get me going and then we can move on to the fun stuff :D

Anyone got some clarification on the octopus thing and the gray wire? I suppose I should wait until it's running like it used to before doing much but I sure would like to get all those dang tubes out of there. :D

R1superstar, what are ya doing with that R1? Any racin or stuntin? I'll look into the mods you mentioned for the CR, I'm definately going to have to get a little help with that one, up until 2 days ago, I'd never even mixed gas, let alone worked on a bike that required it :)

Gotta do something soon though, he gets it for Christmas and I'm afraid he's going to loop it right out of the gate. Maybe I'll make him start in second gear :D


The R1 is my commuter. I love Motorcycles!! :D

I can get you the info for a great company out of the west coast for the flywheel kit. It comes with instructions too. If you can change a light bulb, you can do the kit. Let me know.............db

  • MN_Kevin

Posted December 14, 2003 - 06:44 PM

#6

There is a gray wire and the blue wire.

The blue wire can be found exiting the engine adjacent to the countershaft sprocket. There are several other wires there as well. These "other" wires, at least on my '99 were DEAD leads. The blue wire retards spark or timing, and is triggered when the tranny is in neutral. It has been said by cutting the blue wire or removing the whole mess (I cut all the wires right at the neutral switch) the bike has better spark for starting.

The grey wire again retards spark or timing in the mid range. ONLY THE US MODELS HAVE THIS. For some bizarre reason, it may be linked to the EPA!

Take a look at your wiring schematic in your manual. If I recall right, it comes off your coil.

The Taffy mod is ONLY valid on the 98/99 carbs. It is for the accelerator pump.

>> You can and SHOULD do the BK mod. This will set your accelerator pump timing (squirt relative to the slide position) and the squirt DURATION. My 99 was 3.5 seconds. Survey Says optimum is < 0.5 seconds.

The octopus is also the air cut valve. On the 98/99's, it can be identified by the total mess of hoses on the left side of your carb.

If I recall, on the 2K and newer bikes, disconnecting this is as simple as flipping over the diaphragm. Please verify this yourself!!!!!

If you want to go completely radical, get yourself a YZ450 exhaust cam (I have one, but have yet to install it). The lift/duration is different, will more accurately give you YZ timing AND has the auto decompression. No more "line up to TDC" crap to start!! Just kick your bike over and GO!

  • steveaz

Posted December 14, 2003 - 07:45 PM

#7

Thanks Kevin, I'll check into that stuff as well but right now, I'M SCREWED...ugggggggg!

It seems as though all of my gaskets (throttle valve plate and around the airjets) have grown. When I took off the throttle valve, the gasket was all wrinkled. Is there a rebuild kit available so I can just replace all the gaskets? All the jets are clean though, of course I'll probably be replacing half of those anyway :). Yikes, what have I gotten myself into :D, not like I had a choice I guess.

  • steveaz

Posted December 14, 2003 - 08:39 PM

#8

So now I've discovered that the "lever 2" is on the wrong side of the throttle shaft...how in the heck that could have happened I have NO FRICKEN clue. I haven't removed the throttle shaft....I can't, I don't even have the proper tool, not to mention you're not supposed to removed the TPS. This is great, now I'm sitting here talking to myself in a forum...I'm going to bed! Anyone up for the challenge? :D :D :) :D :D

  • wakin

Posted December 15, 2003 - 09:15 AM

#9

This wouldn't be steveaz from WakeWorld?

  • Hick

Posted December 15, 2003 - 10:44 AM

#10

So now I've discovered that the "lever 2" is on the wrong side of the throttle shaft...


What the hell is that? The pump lever???

As for the CR, can you adjust or shim the power valve??

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  • steveaz

Posted December 15, 2003 - 12:38 PM

#11

The "lever 2" was how it was labeled in the manual. There are two levers, the black one that connects to the "push rod" (and wasn't connected BTW) on the accelerator pump and then "lever 2" that has the adjustment screw and sits behind the black "lever 1". So which one is considered the pump lever, they both interact, right??

This is beyond me, I don't understand how this could have happened. The only thing I noticed is that when the dealer "trimmed" the throttle stop he trimmed it flush with the hole it's threaded into, did this allow the throttle assembly to rotate too far?. The other thing I noticed is that the idle adjustment screw isn't even touching the throttle shaft stop which would also lead me to believe that it's rotated too far. I'm obviously going to have to completely disassemble this thing.

If I remove the screw from the top of the throttle valve lever, will I be able to pull the throttle shaft assembly out? Will this mess with my TPS settings? According to the manual I have to adjust the TPS at idle speed but if it's too far out will I even be able to get the bike started?

If nothing else, I should know a little more than when I started :)

Also, I'm getting ready to order the o-ring and gasket I need and would like to order/get the jets as well. In reading numerous threads it sounds like a 180mj and a 48pj would be a good place to start with the airbox lid removed, white brothers e-series exhaust, and YZ timing at 1000-4000 feet...yes????

As for the CR, I don't know, you can tell how much I know about this stuff. I'm going to order the 2 gaskets to begin with (easiest) and see if it improves. I'm a little hesitant to delve into anything else now until I get this WR thing worked out.

  • Hick

Posted December 15, 2003 - 04:43 PM

#12

The "lever 2" was how it was labeled in the manual. There are two levers, the black one that connects to the "push rod" (and wasn't connected BTW) on the accelerator pump and then "lever 2" that has the adjustment screw and sits behind the black "lever 1". So which one is considered the pump lever, they both interact, right??





Well, if your pump ain't operating then your bike at times will run, uhh, weirdly, and like all manner of things could be wrong with it. I put mine together wrong once and was immediately convinced that the ignition was out of time despite the fact that I had just worked on the carb (get a clue). It sort of sounds like your pump isn't together right. I also wouldn't be surprised if one of the fuel passages for the pump is clogged. Either way it will run like crap if the pump isn't operating properly. If you've fiddled with that adjustment screw we'll need a few more posts to straigten that out.

Now. Arm 2. The black arm is the pump actuator arm. The top of the actuating rod (or "pump rod") is interference-fit into this arm. Just pop it back in. I'd call the black one the "pump arm." The "other" arm is hooked to a spring which actually operates the pump. I'll try to describe the operation:

Throttle pulley rotates counterclockwise allowing the spring arm to rotate. This in turn moves the black pump arm, which pushes downwards on the pump rod.

From your description it sounds like they are in their respective places but that the rod is no longer attached to the pump arm. It just snaps up in there.

If you are worried about the throttle stop order the YZ part and install it.

What else...

Yes, the bike will start with the TPS out of adjustment, should start with it unplugged altogether but I've never tried.

You shouldn't have to remove the throttle shaft.

There is also a section in the manual about adjusting the slide.

Jetting:

1,000 to 4,000 ft.

Okay.

45 pilot (42 at anything above 2,000 ft. unless it is cold, like 50 deg F or colder)
170 main (can go as small as 158 by the time you get to 4,000 ft.)
OBEJP needle, # 4 (5JG-14916-JP-00) (good to 4,000 ft I guess if you use clip 5)
100 PAJ (7A9-14943-27-00) Pilot Air Jet, not a huge change but helpful, particularly at high rpm / low throttle settings.

FYI, with the YZ style needle listed above a smaller main jet is needed vs. that weird WR needle that you have now. You will be amazed at the difference once you get the particulars sorted out, stock WR jetting is a screwed up mess IMO.

For comparison here is my WR 426 jetting for about 4,500 ft. good from about 60 deg to 100 deg., very low humidity:

40 pilot
160 main
OBEKQ # 4 (1.5 clips leaner than stock, and leaner off the bottom, Q vs. stock P)
~ 85 PAJ (stock WR is 75, stock YZ is 100, this jet corresponds/changes w/ pilot fuel, 100 is good w/ 42 but 40 wants a smaller Air Jet)

Hope this helps.

  • steveaz

Posted December 16, 2003 - 05:54 AM

#13

Thanks Hick, that was a great help,

I've ordered the seals, jets, and needle, hopefully they'll be here next week. That was my biggest concern, it's one thing to take something apart and put it right back together, but add a couple weeks, the fact that I've never done this before, and that I never saw it assembled correctly kind of worried me.

I'm going to try and take care of the throttle assembly issue tonight to make sure I don't need more parts.

Thanks for the help,
Steve

  • Hick

Posted December 16, 2003 - 11:59 AM

#14

Thanks Hick, that was a great help,





You are very welcome.

I should have mentioned that if you decide to clean out your accelerator pump make sure you don't drop/misplace the two tiny little o-rings that seal the fuel passages. Also, note how the pump diaphragm is oriented, it only goes in there one way...

When you lift the slide the pump should deliver a big stream of fuel from inside the bell squirting towards the intake side of the carb (provided there is fuel in the bowl). If it were me the next thing I'd do is make sure it is working properly.

Hope this helps.

  • steveaz

Posted December 23, 2003 - 10:58 AM

#15

Okay, I'm back. Well, I've made some progress and learned a few things. First of all the lessons learned (maybe they'll help someone else).

-Carburetor cleaner seems to make o-rings and gaskets expand. Can anyone confirm this? I got my new gaskets in and went to replace the gaskets that had "grown" and found that the old gaskets had returned to their normal size and shape.

-If your throttle limiter is cut too short and the top of the carb is off, rotating the throttle shaft will allow the pump lever to surpass the edge of the black throttle shaft bushing and end up on the wrong side of the throttle shaft. This is the one that really tripped me up.

-And most important...run all the gas out of the carb if the bike is going to sit for any amount of time....I know, pretty stupid lesson to learn.

Now a couple of questions. The manual doesn't show it very well and I started second guessing myself. The accelerator pump diaphram, does the dome face up ^ (toward the spring) or down?

Right now the bike is running and has received it's new exhaust (E-series with 13 disks and header) and the airbox has been uncorked and a new UNI filter put in and I haven't put the new jets in yet because they forgot to ship them.:) The bike is idling pretty well and running pretty strong but a sudden blip of the throttle gets hesitation and there is some backfiring on decel. Will the jets take care of this? My pilot screw is at 1 and 5/8 and everything else is stock.

Thanks for your help thus far, especially Hick. I'm now off to get those new jets you recommended and will change to YZ timing at that time.

Steve

  • Garry_on_a_426

Posted December 23, 2003 - 11:14 AM

#16

-And most important...run all the gas out of the carb if the bike is going to sit for any amount of time....I know, pretty stupid lesson to learn.



Stupid question... Why?

  • steveaz

Posted December 23, 2003 - 11:54 AM

#17

Because I put fuel additive in it thinking it would prevent my jets and everything from getting clogged up. It didn't and they clogged up anyway. If I had run the gas out of the carb (or drained it) it wouldn't have been a problem later. I'm not talking about it sitting for a week, I'm talking a few months.

Steve

  • Garry_on_a_426

Posted December 23, 2003 - 12:15 PM

#18

Ah, ok. But this thing about a bike sitting for a month, I don't understand :D

But, I never thought about the jets getting clogged up, thanks for the tip. :)

  • Hick

Posted December 23, 2003 - 02:22 PM

#19

-Carburetor cleaner seems to make o-rings and gaskets expand. Can anyone confirm this?


Yep. I think my YZF manual said "no carb cleaner" for this reason (same carb, or nearly the same).

-If your throttle limiter is cut too short and the top of the carb is off, rotating the throttle shaft will allow the pump lever to surpass the edge of the black throttle shaft bushing and end up on the wrong side of the throttle shaft. This is the one that really tripped me up.


I've never heard that one before, I'll file this in the appropriate spot. Good job figuring that out.

Now a couple of questions. The manual doesn't show it very well and I started second guessing myself. The accelerator pump diaphram, does the dome face up ^ (toward the spring) or down?


How the hell should I know, that is why I said:

Also, note how the pump diaphragm is oriented, it only goes in there one way...


:D

Not sure about the "dome," I (obviously) don't have this part in front of me right now. I do know that the diaphragm will have a "button" on the brass insert portion of it. This button goes down, it acts as the stop on the pumps travel when it contacts the bottom of the pump. If you put the diaphragm in upside-down I don't think it will work very well, if at all. :)

The bike is idling pretty well and running pretty strong but a sudden blip of the throttle gets hesitation and there is some backfiring on decel. Will the jets take care of this? My pilot screw is at 1 and 5/8 and everything else is stock.


As for the bog, do a search on "BK mod" on the YZ side. Jetting in general I can guarantee you the bike will pull harder with a YZ needle, just go with stock YZ jetting all around as a good starting point. Having said that there are a pile of people who've kept the WR needle and are happy (weird ain't it?). The popping on decel can be cured, but not totally. In my experience by the time you get rid of it completely your throttle response suffers. In short, a little popping on decel is to be expected from a properly jetted WR (w/ open or aftermarket exhaust). To get a better fix on the circuit causing this do a 4th/5th gear run at 1/8 to 1/4 throttle. If it surges you are lean on the pilot/pilot air/idle, stumbles you are rich. It should cruise at a steady state...


Hope this helps.

  • steveaz

Posted December 23, 2003 - 07:30 PM

#20

Yep. I think my YZF manual said "no carb cleaner" for this reason (same carb, or nearly the same).



Must have missed that :)


How the hell should I know, that is why I said:

Also, note how the pump diaphragm is oriented, it only goes in there one way...


I know, but, when I initially took that assembly apart was the other night and was pretty sure I put it back together properly. But you know how when you can't find your keys but check the same place 5 times because they might mysteriously appear...same deal, you start questioning yourself. :D

I'm pretty sure I have it right because it's running pretty well. I went and got jets, only to find they gave me the wrong ones (different threads) but while I was in there I adjusted the pilot screw to 2 turns. Throttle response is very snappy but it's slow to return to idle. The backfiring is better now which seems backwards. It does surge a little though which should be solved by the larger main and pilot jet right? Now if I could just get them.

As for the bog, do a search on "BK mod" on the YZ side. Jetting in general I can guarantee you the bike will pull harder with a YZ needle, just go with stock YZ jetting all around as a good starting point. Having said that there are a pile of people who've kept the WR needle and are happy (weird ain't it?). The popping on decel can be cured, but not totally. In my experience by the time you get rid of it completely your throttle response suffers. In short, a little popping on decel is to be expected from a properly jetted WR (w/ open or aftermarket exhaust). To get a better fix on the circuit causing this do a 4th/5th gear run at 1/8 to 1/4 throttle. If it surges you are lean on the pilot/pilot air/idle, stumbles you are rich. It should cruise at a steady state...


Will do, I still have a lot to do but it's encouraging that it's running and I'm making progress. THANKS!




 
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