Question on the 2012 and Up WR450


19 replies to this topic
  • Team_Oatmeal_Pie

Posted May 21, 2013 - 06:24 PM

#1

Guys, I am looking for some feed back from riders who have owned 2000-2006 Steel Framed WR's and then moved to the new style 2012 and up WR450.

Specifically I am wanting to know how the engine braking compares between the years.

To clafiry, I have a 2000 WR400, which I have owned since new, I love this bike and the strong enginge braking going into corners. I also have a 2004 WR450 and it seems about the same = strong engine braking.

I also have a 2006 yz 450 and the lack of engine braking throws me off, when lining up for corners. But I do love the butter smooth SSS suspension.

I like the idea of a yz250f framed WR450 and was hoping someone could speak to my question.

Thanks in advance.

Todd

  • JDLowrance

Posted May 21, 2013 - 06:48 PM

#2

THere is a fair amount of engine braking from the 2012...about the same as my 99 400, and 03 and 09 450s.

I don't really care for the engine braking so I typically pull the clutch in when entering corners and use the brakes to control entry speed. But if you're a fan of engine braking you'll like the 2012.

  • 080

Posted May 22, 2013 - 05:40 AM

#3

Cant say I feel much difference in the engine breaking between the 13' Wr and 08' Yz as far as the motor but I do feel it in the gearing. The lower 1-2nd gear on the Wr seems to create a lot more engine breaking than the Yz at the same speed due to higher RPM's but that's what I have noticed. Like JDLowrance, I don't like the engine breaking and use the clutch a lot to freewheel.

  • GP1K

Posted May 22, 2013 - 11:46 AM

#4

I wish mine engine braked *less*, not more. Engine braking is definitely not the correct technique for slowing for corners. Engine braking tends to pitch the bike forward too much and makes it harder to get the suspension settled properly for corner entry.

That said, I tuned mine more to my liking via the GYTR tuner, so you should be able to tune it more to your liking as well. More ignition advance = more engine braking.

  • 080

Posted May 22, 2013 - 12:04 PM

#5

That said, I tuned mine more to my liking via the GYTR tuner, so you should be able to tune it more to your liking as well. More ignition advance = more engine braking.


What map set up are you running to lower the engine braking?

  • GP1K

Posted May 22, 2013 - 03:59 PM

#6

What map set up are you running to lower the engine braking?


I'm still experimenting with it a bit. I was using the 'woods/tight trail' map from Yamaha, but it seems the consensus is all the Yamaha maps that don't explicitly say "FMF Exhaust" in the description (which is only 2 out of the 5 they show) assumes a stock pipe etc. So that map is too lean with an FMF etc exhaust. I made a custom map based off the 'woods/tight trail' one, but added fuel to make it richer. My bike has been in the shop getting the suspension done, so I haven't been able to test yet.

At any rate, as I said before, in general more ignition advance is going to mean more engine braking. I definitely noticed more engine braking with the "GTYR by FMF Exhaust" map vs the "woods/tight trail" map, which has a lot less fuel & ignition vs the GYTR/FMF one. It was also a lot snappier across the board. I'm going for something a little mellower off the bottom for tight single track type stuff, hoping this custom map gets me there.

  • stewart_frank

Posted May 23, 2013 - 05:44 AM

#7

The best way I found to eliminate almost all of the engine braking is with a Rekluse clutch. I had the EXP 2.0 version in the last two bikes and when entering a corner the clutch disengages so you don’t have the engine breaking or back wheel hoping. It works real good for me and my riding style and I've had zero problems with the EXP 2.0.



  • grayracer513

Posted May 23, 2013 - 12:58 PM

#8

A Rekluse clutch of any of the three types available has no effect on engine braking whatsoever when setup correctly. It will only disengage when the engine speed drops below the engagement RPM.

  • grayracer513

Posted May 23, 2013 - 01:04 PM

#9

Engine braking is definitely not the correct technique for slowing for corners. Engine braking tends to pitch the bike forward too much and makes it harder to get the suspension settled properly for corner entry.


More ignition advance = more engine braking.


We disagree on both points.

On the last one, ignition advance has no effect on engine braking because there's no fuel being burned during deceleration for the advance to have any effect on. This is especially true of EFI, since the fuel is completely cut off at zero throttle above about 3000 RPM. What does happen with ignition advance is that it will raise the idle speed, and if you don't compensate, the higher idle speed WILL reduce engine braking.

  • Krannie McKranface

Posted May 23, 2013 - 02:21 PM

#10

A Rekluse will soften the initial impact of engine breaking.
The '012+ motor is not different in it's 'air pump' characteristics, and has almost the same exact feel as a 2008 does.

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  • stewart_frank

Posted May 23, 2013 - 04:15 PM

#11

Well it does the way I ride! When I come into a corner I'm usually on the gas hard and right before entering I'm off the gas, RPM's drop, the clutch drops out and there is little or no engine breaking or wheel hop. Yes you get a little engine breaking when you first get off the gas buy just a small amount nothing like what you would get with a manual clutch.

  • grayracer513

Posted May 24, 2013 - 08:26 AM

#12

Any reduction in engine braking with a Rekluse vs. a normal stock clutch exists entirely in your mind. The only time the clutch will release at all, other than when overridden by the lever, is when the engine drops below the engagement RPM, which is usually around 3000 (varies slightly with setup). If you approach a corner at 6000 RPM, the clutch will hold on decel every bit as hard as under power. It has no way of determining any difference between acceleration and deceleration, only the speed at which it spins.

Now, if you mash the rear brake hard enough on the approach to partly or completely lock the wheel for a moment, that can very well bring the engine speed down far enough momentarily for the clutch to release. Once that happens, it will stay released until after you raise the engine speed again with a throttle blip, or just start accelerating out. But you have to cause the release either manually, or by causing a drop in engine speed beyond simply releasing the throttle.

Engine braking is one of the biggest benefits of a 4-stroke. Engine braking won't lock the rear wheel, for one thing. But if you just can't embrace it, the clutch you need is a Back Torque Limiting clutch like the one from Hinson. That unit has a split clutch boss, part of which is solid, like any normal clutch, while the remainder of it runs on an overrun clutch (drives in one direction only). The full clutch drives the bike forward, but only part of the clutch can hold during decel, so it slips, reducing braking by limiting the amount of drag the engine can impose on the rear wheel. The Rekluse doesn't do that; it was never intended to, and anyone spending money on one expecting that ability will be disappointed.

  • Team_Oatmeal_Pie

Posted May 28, 2013 - 09:14 PM

#13

Thanks guys for the feedback. Having ridden my 2 WR's (still have'em) and love them. I find the engine braking on decel is predictable and when combined with a little rear brake drag, I have excellent front end traction. Front wheel can be layed over and I can trust it. I have spent alot of time getting the race tech suspension dialed to make the front stick.

Now with the new to me Yz 450 I find the lack of engine braking throwing me off as l line up for corners on tracks I have ridden many times. Now in reality I probably just need to ride this thing more and figure it out.

But the new 2012 plus WR's do look badass and are loaded with the goods that I like. And that video sure was a good way to hook any WR lover into thinking the new WR was IT.



  • tomerb

Posted May 29, 2013 - 08:06 PM

#14

Any reduction in engine braking with a Rekluse vs. a normal stock clutch exists entirely in your mind. The only time the clutch will release at all, other than when overridden by the lever, is when the engine drops below the engagement RPM, which is usually around 3000 (varies slightly with setup). If you approach a corner at 6000 RPM, the clutch will hold on decel every bit as hard as under power. It has no way of determining any difference between acceleration and deceleration, only the speed at which it spins.

Now, if you mash the rear brake hard enough on the approach to partly or completely lock the wheel for a moment, that can very well bring the engine speed down far enough momentarily for the clutch to release. Once that happens, it will stay released until after you raise the engine speed again with a throttle blip, or just start accelerating out. But you have to cause the release either manually, or by causing a drop in engine speed beyond simply releasing the throttle.

Engine braking is one of the biggest benefits of a 4-stroke. Engine braking won't lock the rear wheel, for one thing. But if you just can't embrace it, the clutch you need is a Back Torque Limiting clutch like the one from Hinson. That unit has a split clutch boss, part of which is solid, like any normal clutch, while the remainder of it runs on an overrun clutch (drives in one direction only). The full clutch drives the bike forward, but only part of the clutch can hold during decel, so it slips, reducing braking by limiting the amount of drag the engine can impose on the rear wheel. The Rekluse doesn't do that; it was never intended to, and anyone spending money on one expecting that ability will be disappointed.



+1

  • 080

Posted May 30, 2013 - 09:44 AM

#15

Thanks guys for the feedback. Having ridden my 2 WR's (still have'em) and love them. I find the engine braking on decel is predictable and when combined with a little rear brake drag, I have excellent front end traction. Front wheel can be layed over and I can trust it. I have spent alot of time getting the race tech suspension dialed to make the front stick.

Now with the new to me Yz 450 I find the lack of engine braking throwing me off as l line up for corners on tracks I have ridden many times. Now in reality I probably just need to ride this thing more and figure it out.


I still think your experiencing less engine braking on Yz450 due to gearing difference. That's what I came off of a while back and when riding the Yz/Wr back to back that is what I notice to be causing the Wr to have more engine breaking. I'm actually gearing my Wr up this weekend to get rid of the engine breaking at slower speeds.

  • Krannie McKranface

Posted May 30, 2013 - 10:36 AM

#16

Any reduction in engine braking with a Rekluse vs. a normal stock clutch exists entirely in your mind. The only time the clutch will release at all, other than when overridden by the lever, is when the engine drops below the engagement RPM, which is usually around 3000 (varies slightly with setup). If you approach a corner at 6000 RPM, the clutch will hold on decel every bit as hard as under power. It has no way of determining any difference between acceleration and deceleration, only the speed at which it spins.

Now, if you mash the rear brake hard enough on the approach to partly or completely lock the wheel for a moment, that can very well bring the engine speed down far enough momentarily for the clutch to release. Once that happens, it will stay released until after you raise the engine speed again with a throttle blip, or just start accelerating out. But you have to cause the release either manually, or by causing a drop in engine speed beyond simply releasing the throttle.

Engine braking is one of the biggest benefits of a 4-stroke. Engine braking won't lock the rear wheel, for one thing. But if you just can't embrace it, the clutch you need is a Back Torque Limiting clutch like the one from Hinson. That unit has a split clutch boss, part of which is solid, like any normal clutch, while the remainder of it runs on an overrun clutch (drives in one direction only). The full clutch drives the bike forward, but only part of the clutch can hold during decel, so it slips, reducing braking by limiting the amount of drag the engine can impose on the rear wheel. The Rekluse doesn't do that; it was never intended to, and anyone spending money on one expecting that ability will be disappointed.


You are totally discounting the fact that a lot of us ride very slippery terrain, are tall/large riders, and ride right at 3k rpm when going up hill and DOWNHILL when the engine braking issues become apparent.

You can ABSOLUTELY feel the clutch slipping at low rpms when going down hill.
The sound of 'motor feedback' against the terrain is noticeably softened.
Why not go down hill in a lower gear/higher rpm? Because the rear suspension works worse, and the over steer increases, when the bike is in 'dive' mode going down hill.

But, what you can do is use the model 1B heavy wedges, and Silver 'light' springs all the way around. Then the auto-clutch engages earlier, and harder, and slips much less.

I personally have taken the EXP off of both of my Wide ratio bikes for this reason alone: slipping at low rpms.

I have found that for RACE SPEEDS the clutch works flawlessly, so on my close ratio bike, I have the CORE EXP fitted.

I understand that I am the exception, but it doesn't make it any less true...........

  • grayracer513

Posted May 30, 2013 - 01:02 PM

#17

I'm not discounting anything. I already pointed out that if the engine rpm is reduced by braking of whatever sort to a point below that at which the clutch is set to begin disengaging, it will begin to do so. But I can't believe that you or anyone seriously considers the engine braking that occurs at under 3000 RPM to be a factor; there's hardly any at all, as that's just over an idle, and it won't slow down to below an idle without being stopped by something. I ride on some pretty slippery rock littered downhills in the desert here, and it's never been a factor. I'll grant, having seen some of the places you ride in the California forum, that you're frequently in places I would call trickier than most of my riding, but all the same.

Unless you propose to use no rear braking at all, then engine braking is, IMO, clearly superior to using the foundation brakes at the rear wheel if for no other reason than the fact that engine will not lock the rear wheel. It may slide it, yes, but unless you kill the engine, the wheel will keep turning while the engine does. If the braking effect is higher than you like, roll the gas back on a little, or upshift.

Personal preference is what it sounds like. The Z-Start Pro on mine is pretty completely locked at 3000. If you set one up to engage late, then yes, it will drop out at plunking speeds on deceleration, but too high an engagement speed tends to make the clutch engage less smoothly, even with lighter weights. The condition and composition of the plates is a factor in that, too.

  • Team_Oatmeal_Pie

Posted May 30, 2013 - 10:47 PM

#18

I still think your experiencing less engine braking on Yz450 due to gearing difference. That's what I came off of a while back and when riding the Yz/Wr back to back that is what I notice to be causing the Wr to have more engine breaking. I'm actually gearing my Wr up this weekend to get rid of the engine breaking at slower speeds.


Interesting, hadnt thought of the gear ratios being diff and the effect. I will see what that does to the YZ when I add a tooth or two to the rear.

  • grayracer513

Posted May 31, 2013 - 06:37 AM

#19

Interesting, hadnt thought of the gear ratios being diff and the effect. I will see what that does to the YZ when I add a tooth or two to the rear.


It will increase the engine braking.

  • Rocky739

Posted May 31, 2013 - 07:03 AM

#20

+ 1 on gearing, made all the diference on my bike by going up one tooth on the countershaft, gonna go down one tooth in the back ASAP.

Went from being a over revving, engine braking hot mess into a smooth controlled bike that acts like a big bore 4t.




 
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