Opinions and comparisions WR vs. CRFX, KLX 450's

[Zoob]

Looking for a real world comparison of the 2012/13 WR450 vs. 05-013 450CRFX or 08-09 KLX 405r. Objective opinions based on actual riding and wrenching rather than some sort of brand loyalty or what you currently have in the garage and may have had for the last 30 years.

All fuel injection aside, seat time and riding opinions if you can please.

Where does the 201/13 WR beat the semi vintage and or current Honda and Kawi (although unaware of the KLX in current year)

Thanks

Z

Edited February 11, 2013 by Zoob

[FORMA MOTO]

You are covering a lot of years, makes, and models here.

There is no direct comparison, really.

None of the bikes are all that great right out of the factory.

All of them need special work in order to get them 'current' to themselves, let alone other bikes, from other years.

There is NO INHERENT ADVANTAGE to fuel injection in terms of performance; it's all about adjust-ability.

The KLX is not longer made.

It was soft, heavy, and had fantastic suspension and motor potential.

The CRF450X is less soft and less heavy, and also has amazing potential for being a world-class race bike

The current WR450F is smaller (a lot) than the other two, and it also has great potential.

Iv'e owned or had substantial seat time on all of them.

I have kept the CRF450X for 8 years, and have had 3 WR450's in 5 years.

I've also had a KX, two KTM's, and a couple other bikes. I sold them all, because they had issues I was tired of dealing with.

The KLX is just plain not built as well as a Yam or Honda. It's metallurgy is suspect, to say the least.

Edited February 12, 2013 by Krannie

[Bandit9]

You ask where does the WR beat the others. I would say suspension and reliability. Out of those bikes, in stock form, the KYB SSS fork/shock on the 12/13 is better. I think the valve train is better. I would also say the power is better too, WR motor is pretty sweet.

[mOdD]

What about the real bikes like the FE, TE, and EXC's?

[Bandit9]

What about the real bikes like the FE, TE, and EXC's?

As opposed to the "fake" bikes??? LOL...why don't you add Harley's too?

Those bikes are too fragile. They get towed more than they get rode down here. Except for the 2 strokes, and they just cost a lot to keep running. I'm one of two Yamaha's in a sea of fancy Euro bikes. I've owned a few Euro bikes myself. I prefer the Yamaha. It surely doesn't slow me down.

[FORMA MOTO]

What about the real bikes like the FE, TE, and EXC's?

You mean the F.ake E.ntry, the T.urgid E.ntry, and the E.xtremely X.pensive C.rap...?

KTM's are hype, hype, hype. I have a brand new 2012 450 SXF in my garage with $2000.00 invested in it to try and get the suspension and brakes to work..... a Stock un-corked 2003 WR450F with some suspension work, kicks it's ASS.

[MANIAC998]

There is NO INHERENT ADVANTAGE to fuel injection in terms of performance; it's all about adjust-ability.

Thanks Krannie! This is what I've believed the whole time, but I haven't ridden any of the new EFI bikes yet so I wasn't sure. Do you actually feel this way, or was this for dramatic purpose?

[FORMA MOTO]

Thanks Krannie! This is what I've believed the whole time, but I haven't ridden any of the new EFI bikes yet so I wasn't sure. Do you actually feel this way, or was this for dramatic purpose?

Don't get me wrong, the 'feel' of the FI bikes is mostly better in all respects, IF, the mapping is correct; more responsive, smoother power transitions, wider powerbands. But, not necessarily more HP. The KTM 450SXF is the exception.

On most bikes, the Carb is still a 'faster' option, and provides a more aggressive power delivery.

This will not be the case for much longer.

MXA mag states that 'until the KX250's dual FI system was released, the promise of FI as a 'better' performance than a carb had yet to be realized'.

Most bikes come with a 'generic' map, which is probably better than shipping it with a carb with 'ballpark' jetting, but the effort and knowledge it takes to get a FI to run correctly, is still being sorted out in many of the brands/models.

The Yamaha system seems to be one of the best, as the bikes have an optional 'tuning kit' you can add that gives you a pipe, air box mods, an FI Tuner, and a pre-programmed map for the upgrades, as well as optional map tuning.

Most of other FI systems, you are on your own, or you have to go to a tuner to get correct mapping, or you use a 'out board bypass tuner' which 'tricks' the ECU, so you can adjust the FI mixture +/- several percent to make adjustments, but they make no change to the ignition map.

Edited February 12, 2013 by Krannie

[Bandit9]

Hence the reason I bought a low hr 09, instead of new 2012. The FCR carb is working nicely. I'll wait until FI is sorted to the point a dummy like me can handle it.

[Zoob]

I see we are getting feedback on the FI so I will weigh in and ask a few questions too. I started the thread because at first glance I am really liking the 2012/13 WR. I have a carbureted CRFX and a 2010YZ 450f with FI. I absolutely love the FI, the throttle response is something to be amazed at! No real bogging and instant power, plus as others state all the adjustability in the world. So when I saw the 2012 WR with FI I was happy and the WRs and X type bikes are fitting more of my current riding style.

So let me ask a few questions: Krannie, you mention the knowledge to get the bike running correctly. Well what is that I guess? What is correctly? I will buy that after adding a slip on some mapping might slightly improve the bikes over all baseline performance. But what else?

I don't think FI was supposed to at HP to a bike, was it? (asking?)

So (asking again) the beauty of the FI system, is/was among other things like throttle response, was to always have the correct air /fuel mixture at any elevation, with any modifications. The CPU should be figuring out the correct jetting all the time right? So if this is the case this would bypass the traditional re-jetting of normally aspirated bikes; and I like having not to re jet (kind of like the newer air suspension, once that is all worked out I can finally stop buying springs and I/we will have infinite adjustability just as mapping an FI bike.) I like the technology. Maybe the fear is that it is not quite up standards yet. Or maybe what we are asking for is an easier user interface for mapping?

Thoughts and comments...

Edited February 12, 2013 by Zoob

[FORMA MOTO]

Man, that post is hard to read!

FI systems on dirt bikes are NOT CLOSED LOOP.

The only thing they adjust for is air temp and air pressure. They do not adjust for O2 or fuel in the exhaust.

They do not alter fuel/air mixture at all, outside of idle, beyond the map that is installed.

They have no post-combustion sensors that could monitor Fuel/air mixture.

They compensate a few percent for air pressure and air temp.

An FCR carb goes from 0ft to 8500ft without any issues. Yes, it becomes less powerful when you go up in altitude.

FI will act the same, only not as much drop in power, as it will compensate a few percent for the 'pilot' stage.

Having 'infinte' adjust-ability with FI, is a false premise.

It either runs correctly, or it doesn't. Fuel/air mixture borders on 12.5 at all rpms, or it doesn't.

You can't 'add performance' by changing the 'jetting' (FI settings), unless the 'jetting' is wrong to begin with.

Once it is correct, you are done.

What you are altering is the IGNITION MAP to change the bikes characteristics.

That's what the little 'plugs' that come with KX's, or the bar switch on KTM's do.

They alter the ignition map, not the FI.

So, if you like 'graphic equalizers' on you stereo system, thinking that it can improve the sound of the stereo (it can only make it different, not better), then you might like the 'infinite adjust-ability' of FI, but there is only one setting of FI that is correct.

Ignition timing curves are a great way to adjust the bikes feel. But these have been available way before FI.

[Bandit9]

To me, the most valuable thing about FI used to be riding at high elevations and not having to rejet. 2 strokes and 250f's probably would benefit more from FI in that regard. However, with 450's we have now, I don't experience much power loss or bad running of the carb/bike. Just adjust Fuel Screw and go ride. That is when I came to the conclusion that FI wasn't necessary for "me". I'm not one to try 150 maps or be tinkering with it b/t loops. I get used to what I got, then hammer down.

Now suspension, is another deal. I like new and better. I don't ride MX, so to me the jury is still out whether Air stuff is better in the woods, mainly bc it hasn't hit the woods bikes yet. I don't see how it can get much better than a well tuned KYB SSS fork. If the Air stuff is proven to be better in the woods, then I must have it.

[beezer]

I've sat on the side of a trail while someone with a dead FI equipped bike tries to figure out what the problem is.

Dirt bikes have gotten very complex and expensive.

I looked at a 2013 KTM 350 and it would have cost me over 10 K by the time it was all said and done.

[Bandit9]

Word

My 09 with 20 hrs on it was $4500

[Zoob]

Well I simply do not have the knowedge base with respect to current FI systems in the MX industry, that is why I was asking the questions.

I can say that I have alwasys loved Yamaha KYB suspension and especially the braking on the YZ line. So with the new WRs have these traits been transfered over from the YZ? I would gather the WR runs with softer springs and perhaps a different valving?

For the woods guys, what do think about the aluminum frames? Would you still want a steel frame?

P.S. Was this post more linear?

Edited February 12, 2013 by Zoob

[Bandit9]

I had an 06 and thought I would hate the Aluminum frame, however I really like it. For me the 07+ handles better, particularly side to side. Haven't noticed it being stiffer. I would imagine the 12+ would be much better in this regard.

Yamaha suspension always seems to be a step ahead.

[GuyGraham]

Yamaha suspension always seems to be a step ahead.

Except the piss poor forks fitted to the 07-11 WR450 with its crappy base valve arrangement that has to be converted to a proper shim stack to make the forks useable

[beezer]

I'm going to try and find a set of 12-13 WR450 forks on fleabay.

I really like my 08 WR450 once I got it dialed in.

I liked it alot better than my steel framed 05.

I don't think anything else is as reliable.

[FORMA MOTO]

Except the piss poor forks fitted to the 07-11 WR450 with its crappy base valve arrangement that has to be converted to a proper shim stack to make the forks useable

DITTO

[FORMA MOTO]

I'm going to try and find a set of 12-13 WR450 forks on fleabay.

I really like my 08 WR450 once I got it dialed in.

I liked it alot better than my steel framed 05.

I don't think anything else is as reliable.

2006 yz250

2006 yz250F

2006 yz450f

....forks and shock are a direct fit to the 2007-2011 WR's, and are the superior 'SSS' type.

The 125 fits too, but it has 1.2mm thinner tubes for less weight (and therefore quite a bit more flex)

2007 and later require you move over the caliper and front wheel too.

This goes for the '12/13 WR SS forks: they are not a direct fit on the 2007-11 WR's, but do have thinner tube walls than the 2006 and later YZ's had, to smooth out the low-speed ride. In otherwords, the WR SSS suspension is 'more compliant' in the metallurgy than the SSS used on the YZ line. Which is probably a good idea.