[trailwhale]

I would go one further than Tod as even a user built existing trail in good condition could be conceived/argued in court as an "existing" facility for the purposes of law enforcement. Visual documentation would be the key to getting this to stand up for the judge.....

[tod701]

I didn't see anything in WAC 332-52 that would exclude a user built trail from the protections codified in section 110.

Looks to me like intentional damage to any trail regardless of its origin is a crime.

[Crashfab]

Interesting.

Down side is you need enforcement to make the laws work.....

[trailwhale]

Interesting.

Down side is you need enforcement to make the laws work.....

BINGO we have a winner!

[Crashfab]

BINGO we have a winner!

The DNR has always stated to us (RTW) if anything was seen or pictures of anything they could take that information and prosecute. I have heard both sides of this and I hear alot of "it will never happen" nor have I ever heard of anybody being prosecuted in this manner. Now I don't know if this is the lack of funds on the DNR's behalf to go forward with information handed to them or not.

But thanks for the WAC info tod--I had no idea...

[sdavies]

The DNR has always stated to us (RTW) if anything was seen or pictures of anything they could take that information and prosecute. I have heard both sides of this and I hear alot of "it will never happen" nor have I ever heard of anybody being prosecuted in this manner. Now I don't know if this is the lack of funds on the DNR's behalf to go forward with information handed to them or not.

But thanks for the WAC info tod--I had no idea...
Make no mistake the DNR through channels have fined and prosicuted,BUT it is so rare that this has been done and only in extream cases. I just got back from Reiter I told a few Quad guys that it was closed,they left in a huff. David showed up and talked to two guys with bikes and two toyotas everyone complied all were not so happy.To make this real simple. The damage needs to be addressed,trails need to be asigned by the trail person maped and approved. If 10 years ago people would have worked together instead of all the crap they flung back and forth. If there would have been some kinda respect things may have been a bit different. Yea what if what if. Quite the bickering whats done is done. People like Crash are doing thier best and all they get is the same as I got off and on for the last 10 years and I am sick of it. Get a gripe if we don't start and proceed better than we have in the past this will be the start of the end rather than a begining. There I've said it. You may not like it but it needs to be said. And ps Reiter was almost shut down in the late90's it was the user groups,RTW, Stumpjumpers, that posponed it. The rest is out of our control and yours too.:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::bangh ead::foul::foul::foul::foul::foul:

[trailwhale]

Past experience with Snohomish County Sheriff on dumping (evidence in hand) or other low rated considered victimless crimes at Reiter was less than inspiring.....Couldn't even get a hold of anyone that knew how to cite at DNR regional office -referred backed to Sno County.......truly a cluster **** of inspired public servants......

[sdavies]

I got the Gold bar working with the local sheriff after two people that stole a jeep,one burned car hulk,one burnning, SO PLEASE DON,T TELL ME IT WAS A LOST CAUSE. BEEN THERE DONE THAT. And got area closed back around2002,the trail law works if your not assertive in the right fashion or ther is higher piroty some where else. Anytime we called they were there pronto.

[tod701]

The DNR has always stated to us (RTW) if anything was seen or pictures of anything they could take that information and prosecute. I have heard both sides of this and I hear alot of "it will never happen" nor have I ever heard of anybody being prosecuted in this manner. Now I don't know if this is the lack of funds on the DNR's behalf to go forward with information handed to them or not.

But thanks for the WAC info tod--I had no idea...

I did a public records request a few years ago.
The request was for all citations and warnings issued by the DNR northwest region in any area where ORV use was common (North Fork, Walker, P5000, Reiter) for a three year period.

Only three tickets were written and zero convictions.

In the past, some of the DNR staff tasked with E&E didn't want to/didn't know how to enforce the law.

I provided evidence that would have made easy work, but got blown off every time. Kept bugging Commissioner Sutherland every time we met.

Things did improve.
Thanks Doug :thumbsup:
Big Kevin was loaned to the region for a while :banana:

After that Kim have put forth a good effort, but thanks to the democrats in the legislature she is at reduced hours looking at being gone :banghead:


BTW - If it sounds like I am busting your balls when I reply to your post and blow up what you are saying, that is not my intent. I just want us to all be on top of our game with the best info available at hand.

When you go deal with the legislature or our enemies in the courtroom they'll eat you alive if you get something wrong. Better to do it here where you'll get ripped with a smile, than out in battle where it hurts you and the sport :ride:

[shrubitup]

When you go deal with the legislature or our enemies in the courtroom they'll eat you alive if you get something wrong. Better to do it here where you'll get ripped with a smile, than out in battle where it hurts you and the sport :ride:

Very well said. :thumbsup:

[BullTaco]

Ladies and Gents,

Good luck with the education part. Here's what you're up against:

"I want to say that when I say "ride where we wanna," that its within reason.. I dont want nice hillsides in the Mts to get beat by repetitive hill climbs and the like, but when there are old loggin roads, old fire line trails, game trails, or old bikehttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/2.gif (http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=829006&page=3#) trails that are closed due to lack of funding, I say ride the bitches.. If the state dont have money to maintain it, they likely dont have money to enforce its closure, right??"

And that is from a rider on this forum in a different thread. There is such a sense of entitlement and machismo, it's catching up to us.

Also, and this is neither good not bad, it just is...most off road machines we ride/drive are big, knobbied, loud, and aggressive, just like the riders/drivers themselves. Tis the nature of the beast. We like to walk tall but we do leave a big footprint on the planet.

Just look at Slo's video again. No tree hugger did that. We did. We have met the enemy and they are us.

BullTaco

[Slackkinhard]

Ladies and Gents,

Good luck with the education part. Here's what you're up against:

"I want to say that when I say "ride where we wanna," that its within reason.. I dont want nice hillsides in the Mts to get beat by repetitive hill climbs and the like, but when there are old loggin roads, old fire line trails, game trails, or old bikehttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/2.gif (http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=829006&page=3#) trails that are closed due to lack of funding, I say ride the bitches.. If the state dont have money to maintain it, they likely dont have money to enforce its closure, right??"

And that is from a rider on this forum in a different thread. There is such a sense of entitlement and machismo, it's catching up to us.

Also, and this is neither good not bad, it just is...most off road machines we ride/drive are big, knobbied, loud, and aggressive, just like the riders/drivers themselves. Tis the nature of the beast. We like to walk tall but we do leave a big footprint on the planet.

Just look at Slo's video again. No tree hugger did that. We did. We have met the enemy and they are us.

BullTaco

Uh, I about choked on my own vomit there. I disagree on a lot of points. Not to say we aren't ever our own worst enemy, but I submit...Single track trails have been all over the continent for centuries. Used for all purposes. They don't defile, nor ruin the beauty of the land. In fact, IMHO a nicely defined single track trail leading off into the wilderness is the most inviting. It's a human experience to test himself against our maker's artwork and splendor. For me, all that goes away with a road. It's as if that area has been conquered and will forever be domesticated. Single track doesn't do that. A small volunteer crew can keep 100's of miles of single track groomed and useable for many types of recreation. Only poor manners between groups become the problem, and those can usually be worked out. The public land resource is a big place, and we're already excluded from most of it. How much more are we going to let them decide we're not worthy of? I understand the tone of entitlement...it happens when something that you already have, love, cherish, and nurture...gets taken away by folks that don't care, they just have an agenda, and move onto the next item.

BTW, Reiter is fine IMHO. Do something to control the dual track machines, and it'll be there. IMHO, a couple mudholes in the woods does not make it a destroyed area.

[tod701]

...most off road machines we ride/drive are big, knobbied, loud, and aggressive, just like the riders/drivers themselves. Tis the nature of the beast. We like to walk tall but we do leave a big footprint on the planet.

Not most, just the most visible :bonk:


big

Some are well over 10 times larger than others (weight):eek:


knobbied

Not a problem if used properly and trials tires take it a step further :thumbsup:


loud

Only the ones that belong to a$$clowns :foul:


aggressive

Only as long as you don't ruin the trails :prof:



We like to walk tall but we do leave a big footprint on the planet.

Not all ORV leave a big footprint :banghead:

Hopefully the supporters of large ORV can understand and support the concept that not ORV leave the same footprint and maybe light ORVs should be allowed in some places where big ones are not.

This is the only way that large ORV'er will get support from many motorcyclists.

[slo rider]

Uh, I about choked on my own vomit there. I disagree on a lot of points. Not to say we aren't ever our own worst enemy, but I submit...Single track trails have been all over the continent for centuries. Used for all purposes. They don't defile, nor ruin the beauty of the land. In fact, IMHO a nicely defined single track trail leading off into the wilderness is the most inviting. It's a human experience to test himself against our maker's artwork and splendor. For me, all that goes away with a road. It's as if that area has been conquered and will forever be domesticated. Single track doesn't do that. A small volunteer crew can keep 100's of miles of single track groomed and useable for many types of recreation. Only poor manners between groups become the problem, and those can usually be worked out. The public land resource is a big place, and we're already excluded from most of it. How much more are we going to let them decide we're not worthy of? I understand the tone of entitlement...it happens when something that you already have, love, cherish, and nurture...gets taken away by folks that don't care, they just have an agenda, and move onto the next item.

BTW, Reiter is fine IMHO. Do something to control the dual track machines, and it'll be there. IMHO, a couple mudholes in the woods does not make it a destroyed area.

Aggreed. Here are some videos of single track we rode on Sunday
http://www.vholdr.com/node/50434 (http://www.vholdr.com/node/50434)
http://www.vholdr.com/node/50437
I've ridden this stuff for the last 3 or 4 years and it hasn't changed. I hope that when Reiter is reopened this stuff isn't out of bounds or gets so much additional traffic that it gets blown out to double track.

[shrubitup]

Aggreed. Here are some videos of single track we rode on Sunday
http://www.vholdr.com/node/50434 (http://www.vholdr.com/node/50434)
http://www.vholdr.com/node/50437
I've ridden this stuff for the last 3 or 4 years and it hasn't changed. I hope that when Reiter is reopened this stuff isn't out of bounds or gets so much additional traffic that it gets blown out to double track.
Ya, post GPS tracks of this trail so the 4x4s can come in and widen it out for us. ：ふぉうｌ＊

[skydabber]

Also, and this is neither good not bad, it just is...most off road machines we ride/drive are big, knobbied, loud, and aggressive, just like the riders/drivers themselves. Tis the nature of the beast. We like to walk tall but we do leave a big footprint on the planet.

Just look at Slo's video again. No tree hugger did that. We did. We have met the enemy and they are us.

BullTaco

Did anybody pay attention to where the trials riders went in the first video? They quietly rode down an existing 8" wide single track. This trail stays 8" wide because we educate our group. We don't encourage novice riders to ride this trail until they gain the skills to ride the trail without tearing it up.
If the trials riders hadn't ridden right in front of the camera, no one would have even known they were there. I take issue with the 'big footprint' statement. It simply isn't true.
Single track riders are not the enemy.

[ktmfred300]

Did anybody pay attention to where the trials riders went in the first video? They quietly rode down an existing 8" wide single track. This trail stays 8" wide because we educate our group. We don't encourage novice riders to ride this trail until they gain the skills to ride the trail without tearing it up.
If the trials riders hadn't ridden right in front of the camera, no one would have even known they were there. I take issue with the 'big footprint' statement. It simply isn't true.
Single track riders are not the enemy.
For years before the quads and buggies showed up Reiter didn't change much at all because it was all single track used by motorcylces. Only in the last 5 or 6 years has all the damage been done by 4 wheel user groups. Who is the DNR listening to? The asshats that tore it up:banghead: I was there at the very first Reiter clean-up back in 1988 and it was mostly motorcycle guys no jeeps or quads so why are these johnney come latelys who have done the most damage being allowed to continue to go to Reiter. Reiter is not the place for them because it can not hold up to the weight and mud digging tires of these rigs. If they are going to stay keep them down low in the lower parking area where they have destoryed it and leave the upper part of Reiter for the bikes:thumbsup: Call me an a quad and jeep hater I don't care I call it the way I see it. I hate to say it but I knew once the DNR got involved we would get screwed and thats what going to happen. Reiter will be changed forever and not for the better. I know a lot of guys are going to turn into outlaw riders with the attiude catch me if you can DNR and I don't blame them.

[dustyxcw]

For years before the quads and buggies showed up Reiter didn't change much at all because it was all single track used by motorcylces. Only in the last 5 or 6 years has all the damage been done by 4 wheel user groups. Who is the DNR listening to? The asshats that tore it up:banghead: I was there at the very first Reiter clean-up back in 1988 and it was mostly motorcycle guys no jeeps or quads so why are these johnney come latelys who have done the most damage being allowed to continue to go to Reiter. Reiter is not the place for them because it can not hold up to the weight and mud digging tires of these rigs. If they are going to stay keep them down low in the lower parking area where they have destoryed it and leave the upper part of Reiter for the bikes:thumbsup: Call me an a quad and jeep hater I don't care I call it the way I see it. I hate to say it but I knew once the DNR got involved we would get screwed and thats what going to happen. Reiter will be changed forever and not for the better. I know a lot of guys are going to turn into outlaw riders with the attiude catch me if you can DNR and I don't blame them.
Amen
:devil:

[BullTaco]

Sorry Slack,

Maybe we can share some vomit, but stuff like this:

"In fact, IMHO a nicely defined single track trail leading off into the wilderness is the most inviting," is hella selfish and divisive for the ORV community.

Is the old codger on the old jeep track in his Willy's not looking for the same "wilderness" experience as you? What about the dad and two kids on a logging road in a lifted Bronco out looking for a Christmas tree?

Other folks in this thread are right...as long as the conversation centers on the 1st Person I-Me-My we won't get anywhere.

BullTaco

[Slackkinhard]

Sorry Slack,

Maybe we can share some vomit, but stuff like this:

"In fact, IMHO a nicely defined single track trail leading off into the wilderness is the most inviting," is hella selfish and divisive for the ORV community.

Is the old codger on the old jeep track in his Willy's not looking for the same "wilderness" experience as you? What about the dad and two kids on a logging road in a lifted Bronco out looking for a Christmas tree?

Other folks in this thread are right...as long as the conversation centers on the 1st Person I-Me-My we won't get anywhere.

BullTaco

We are going to have to agree to disagree then. I'll never equate a jeep track with a single track. Won't happen. Think about it, they are NOT the same. If some old codger wants to go drive down established "jeep tracks"...so be it. Stay off the single track. Just because someone can go somewhere, doesn't mean someone else should be able to whine about it until they get permission to go there too, and ruin it for others. Here's a question for ya...Why Reiter? Why not lobby to get some other place set aside?

And I fail to 'get it' on this statement "is hella selfish and divisive for the ORV community." Huh?

I'm not against separation and segregation if that's what you're gettin at.

[chuck4788]

United we stand, divided we fall is correct when discussing OHV land use, and cooperation between user groups is the solution. BUT not shared trails.

If you all keep talking about sharing trails in the context of 4x4s/quads having a right to go where they want then any sense of cooperation with the dirt bike crowd will disappear. IMO rampant uncontrolled 4x4 and quad use at Reiter destroyed a wonderful dirt bike riding area to the point it has required DNR intervention with monetary support from the Legislature; it doesn't get much worst than that. The quads have also damaged other single track riding areas making them almost worthless for riding.

So let's work together to develop OHV areas but stop the talk about sharing trails because the dirt bike crowd wants replacement of all of the trails that 4x4s and quads have destroyed at Reiter and other areas. Right now the dirt bike crowd is reeling from the loss of Reiter and emotions are running high. Logically we know cooperation is the solution but because of quad and 4x4 destruction of ST we also view these other users as the problem, not the solutions.

Now understand I'm not accusing members of this forum or the many user clubs (bike & 4x4) that are working hard to improve the situation, the problem is DNR and Snohomish County have allowed unregulated access by irresponsible users. I also believe DNR took the easy way out years ago by allowing quads on ST when separation of user groups should have been initiated, maybe Reiter can be the start.

End of rant.

[DRS]

if you're in a 4x4 trying to get down a single track trail by cutting trees out of the way, i doubt it's some kind of wilderness experience that you and your wife or kids are going to cherish for years... you're completely destroying a beautiful landscape and making sure nobody else gets to enjoy it.. it's the absolute ultimate selfishness... this video http://vholdr.com/node/41717 at about the 5 minute mark shows the first time i had ever seen a 4x4 up in that area, and this was about a month ago, they were stuck stuck and stuck, and not hardly moving, out of their rigs with chainsaws and cutting there way into that trail... fast forward one month they have complete destroyed that particular trail section as the video that started this thread shows... :banghead:

[shrubitup]

Sorry Slack,

Maybe we can share some vomit, but stuff like this:

"In fact, IMHO a nicely defined single track trail leading off into the wilderness is the most inviting," is hella selfish and divisive for the ORV community.

Is the old codger on the old jeep track in his Willy's not looking for the same "wilderness" experience as you? What about the dad and two kids on a logging road in a lifted Bronco out looking for a Christmas tree?

Other folks in this thread are right...as long as the conversation centers on the 1st Person I-Me-My we won't get anywhere.

BullTaco

Mr. Slackmeister never intended to use the word Wilderness in its true form, i.e., the newly (albeit falsely) designated Wild Sky Wilderness. He is not riding in designated Wilderness areas and does not seek to. Instead, he wants to enjoy the very primitive nature of some of the upper trails at Reiter. Many of those trails are barely passable on dirt bikes and some say that only a trials bike can make them. Riders with skill that also know how to ride a primitive trail without tearing it up SHOULD HAVE COMPLETE ACCESS to these trails.

Instead, the march of selfish 4x4 rigs from the lower pit up towards the top has gotten the microscope of USFWS, Tulalip Tribes, EPA, DNR, WDFW, etc. If the trails were properly blocked and enforcement or successful reporting existed of the asshat mudders then we'd hopefully not be in this mess. :foul:

It's very hard to cooperate with a group that wants "equal" access to Reiter when the terrain, slopes, soils, vegetation, streams, etc. CANNOT carry their impact unlike ours. :banghead:

[skydabber]

Mr. Slackmeister never intended to use the word Wilderness in its true form, i.e., the newly (albeit falsely) designated Wild Sky Wilderness. He is not riding in designated Wilderness areas and does not seek to. Instead, he wants to enjoy the very primitive nature of some of the upper trails at Reiter. Many of those trails are barely passable on dirt bikes and some say that only a trials bike can make them. Riders with skill that also know how to ride a primitive trail without tearing it up SHOULD HAVE COMPLETE ACCESS to these trails.

Instead, the march of selfish 4x4 rigs from the lower pit up towards the top has gotten the microscope of USFWS, Tulalip Tribes, EPA, DNR, WDFW, etc. If the trails were properly blocked and enforcement or successful reporting existed of the asshat mudders then we'd hopefully not be in this mess. :foul:

It's very hard to cooperate with a group that wants "equal" access to Reiter when the terrain, slopes, soils, vegetation, streams, etc. CANNOT carry their impact unlike ours. :banghead:

Very well said. This pretty much sums up the situation at Reiter.

[Slackkinhard]

^^ :thumbsup::thumbsup:

[ktmfred300]

If you have to cut trees down to get thru you are on the wrong trail PERIOD! That vidio should be shown to the 4 wheeler crowd and ask them, IS THIS RIGHT? Single track trail have the least impact of any trail, are the easiest to build and maintain. The problem also that the DNR in the region that Reiter is in are not dirtbike friendly at all. They have no clue about what we want or need. The DNR does not communicate between reigions to share information which has been going on for years. So what they learned at Tahuya or Walker will not be shared to save time and money at Reiter. That needs to stop! Also has anyone mentioned the economic impact closeing Rieter will have on the local motorcycle dealers and independent shops? We are 30-40% off this year and this will not make things better. There use to be 3 motorcycle dealers in Monroe now there is 1. Think about it

[The Shocker]

if you're in a 4x4 trying to get down a single track trail by cutting trees out of the way, i doubt it's some kind of wilderness experience that you and your wife or kids are going to cherish for years... you're completely destroying a beautiful landscape and making sure nobody else gets to enjoy it.. it's the absolute ultimate selfishness... this video http://vholdr.com/node/41717 at about the 5 minute mark shows the first time i had ever seen a 4x4 up in that area, and this was about a month ago, they were stuck stuck and stuck, and not hardly moving, out of their rigs with chainsaws and cutting there way into that trail... fast forward one month they have complete destroyed that particular trail section as the video that started this thread shows... :banghead:


And what did you guys do to help this situation? You could have gotten plate #'s, talked to them to inform them of the damage they were creating, or called 911. This is why Reiter is what it is......

[chuck4788]

And what did you guys do to help this situation? You could have gotten plate #'s, talked to them to inform them of the damage they were creating, or called 911. This is why Reiter is what it is......

So its the dirt bike riders fault for the situation at Reiter?:bonk:

If there is to be cooperation among user groups we need to stop blaming each other and move forward because the various user organizations are not the ones that caused the problems.
Put the blame where it belongs; Reiter was just fine until the invasion of 4X4s and quads. Also where was Snohomish County and DNR with signage, education, and enforcement? Recognize that the problems were created by uneducated users and a lack of signage and enforcement.

[shrubitup]

Recognize that the problems were created by uneducated users and a lack of signage and enforcement.

Or BIGAZZ barriers that at least would make a 4x4 or quad have some sense of guilt for poaching trails that aren't theirs to begin with. :mad: :censored: :smashpc:

[skydabber]

And what did you guys do to help this situation? You could have gotten plate #'s, talked to them to inform them of the damage they were creating, or called 911. This is why Reiter is what it is......

Every time I 'inform' a 4x4 I get a threat in return. I can only stomach being told to #@&$ myself, so many times.
We have been screaming at the DNR, and sheriff since the 4x4's showed up. We started taking pictures of the damage and the rigs that where doing it. NONE of the officials did anything to stop anyone..
We all know who did the damage. This is the 4x4's mess now.
Why do you insist on beating this dead horse? A 4x4 will get no help from anyone who knew Reiter before the 4x4's trashed it. Why would I help anyone who has taken a dump on my carpet?