[The Bottom Line]

As much as I agree with the Moderator in that the original thread was going nowhere; I felt that some fine comments regarding simple cooperation between the sports was buried somewhere in there and certainly not given the credit these people deserved who brought the concept forward. Please allow me to give "The Bottom Line" as to what I believe to be true from getting burned out on these same issues after just 5 long years of off-road politics (I will list these experiences one issue at a time over several days):

#1) Motorcyclists have been instrumental in birthing and shaping what we have today.

The #1 rule in "atv politics" is to first qualify every statement that you may ever make with some kind of nod to the AMA and/or every rider who may have even considered swinging a leg over any two-wheeled machine. Grovel if you wish; just don't ever forget to mention the fact that you appreciate their efforts and that we all couldn't have possibly gathered here tonight without them (this usually takes about one minute of your alloted speaking time; made prudent by the fact that if you don't?....every cycle guy in the room will accuse you of not understanding the history of this or that and the role that they played in it).

With that out of the way and any credit duly noted....we can now approach the problems we face in 2005 and beyond in ALL of the off-road community (which is where the two groups inevitably part ways).

The motorcycling community (to their credit) have been able to draw from the same generation that spawned a strong sledding community in our northern regions and a good number of highly respected Four Wheel Drive groups all over the country. Atvers (who, quite unbelievably, come close to crushing all of these groups put together in 2005) are saddled with drawing from a generation of riders that is frankly "embarrasing" at best.

I say this only from my experience in a state with the largest trail system in the country....Michigan (believe it or not with over 3,000 miles of "maintained" :rolleyes: trails). There are some very fine, very small, 'regional' atv groups in this state; yet my experience has indicated that all previous attempts at getting large number of enthusiasts to elect, advise and support those within their ranks to finally stand up and make the trips necessary to fight the people railroading them....have been an abject failure. It is very hard to get anybody beyond discussing the new logo for their next t-shirts/bumper stickers or planning where the next "ride" is going to be and who will bring the weenies.....when the riders involved couldn't even carry the jock strap of the guys who busted out the trail they're about to ride! :o

It's a joke, folks. Where my generation got so off-track to the point where they would let a world-class system like ours literally rot in front of their very eyes....while pushing instead for a "Detroit" riding area that would allow their lazy butts to stay closer to suburbia and their rolling pin-wielding wives....is beyond the crack of my rear. :confused:
Where are these millions of atv enthusiasts who outnumber everything in the woods....besides in red-headed step-child groups like the ATVA? Does the fact that this sport can't even field its own national organization...TELL YOU ANYTHING about the riders in it?
I've witnessed club members here in Michigan who are so docile and uninvolved....that they won't even demand that their own leaders be elected! (again, see our national leadership today). We've got leadership here in Michigan....who have charged parents to sit in on their kid's training classes....without atver club member one ever having the kahunas to say a word about it! (which soon led to the state being deluged with parents raising so much heck that we don't even require hands-on training anymore for our youth, as of this year :o ).

I'll get to item #2 on how cocky the cyclists have been and why they are right now the #1 reason this community is not as united as they should and may never be; yet if you don't lay this kind of groundwork as to who has done 'what' in the years preceding and continuing through this year of our Lord 2004....you'll never understand the rest of it.

[ob1quixote]

The ATVers arent going to disappear.

If they dont outnumber bikes where you ride, they will.

The cycling community needs to work towards accepting and educating ATVers.

Trading insults will not accomplish this.

You wont get every ATVer, you didnt get every cycler, but if you make no attempt, the end is predictable. Cyclers will be the secondary user group, and decisions will be made with less concern for the secondary group to handle the problems and needs of the main user group.

Oh, and dont complain about trails you dont help out on. Like the Honda ATV commercial says "Trails dont clear themselves". They dont design themselves, clear themselves, grade themselves, arrow themselves, clean themselves.

Lets see how this one flies................

Robert

[KTM265]

If we team up together as off-road riders...we have a much bigger voice and voting power.

[crazyYammi]

One thing is for sure... the more people try to convince me of the merits of atvs the more i hate them.

[KTM265]

Crazy... I'm not bashing bikes, I own two myself and ride them just as much as the quad. Fact is there are more and more ATVs out there every day. If you are not already the minority you soon will be. Now you can join together and have a larger voice in what happens to the trails or you can stay divided, fighting about stupid things and let the greenies close it all down... Closed minds lead to closed trails...

[duhave]

I totally agree that all OHV peoples need to get it together or lose what we have. Irregardless of what we ride.

I do however, have no love for the majority of quad riders that I have "run into". I'll leave it at that.

The newer generations of dirt bikers are even getting under my skin too. I blame this on the parents and not on the kids.

Perhaps an ettiquite class should be required at all off road parks before one can ride there?

[KTM265]

Well said duhave. :applause: :applause: :applause:

[sigint]

The "maintained" trails in Michigan, and having to trailer the bikes to a ORV trail head when my property borders National Forest on 3 sides is what drove me to an enduro, errrr... dual sport. Endless miles of whoops, DNR checkpoints, and kids out hot-dogging (I did it too, but have since wised up some) helped in the decision as well.

I grew up riding in the same areas that has now been designated verboten by our Michigan Gestapo (the DNR) for non-street legal vehicles. Too many riders, too few trails, and too little maintenance destroys the designated riding areas, and the eco-freaks and the DNR use that as examples to close even more areas. I wrote letters, even sent pictures, to the state reps and the DNR, but finally faced the fact that our sport is dominated by youngsters who don't write or vote. And while I'm a property owner in the area, my primary residence is elsewhere so I have no real respresentation from the state congressman where I ride. They never forget to send my property tax bills however.

Nope, I've all but given up. I recently joined the Blue Ribbon Coalition, and plan to join the AMA (and I'm a member of numerous other special interest groups) - but I'm spent on trying to get any decent ORV laws out of the Michigan legislature.

Hate to take such a defeatist attitude, but I've been on the losing side of this fight for about 20 years. I've got no children to fight for in this matter, and there's more important fights for me now. Run for office bottom line - I'll vote for ya. :thumbsup:

[KTM265]

sigint...I have have thought about it many times, even thought about being a lobbiest to get my feet wet in Washington. I would have to get some pretty big support around here and in the forums to make it happen.

[Tubo]

There are too many ignorant people with superman syndrome running around in the woods on quads for the timberland corporations to ignore. They have been left with no choice but to close their lands to everyone. The majority of quad owners have ruined it for the few. This is a fact that cannot be denied. Why try to justify the damage done by so many quad owners?

[drjack]

I'd rather ride alone than ride with a quad :p BUT I'd rather ride with a quad than not ride at all. So I too believe we have to work together. HOWEVER I will continue to bash quads (in a mostly joking way of course) because they are deserving of bashing :D

[The Bottom Line]

The ATVers arent going to disappear.

If they dont outnumber bikes where you ride, they will.

The cycling community needs to work towards accepting and educating ATVers.

Trading insults will not accomplish this.

You wont get every ATVer, you didnt get every cycler, but if you make no attempt, the end is predictable. Cyclers will be the secondary user group, and decisions will be made with less concern for the secondary group to handle the problems and needs of the main user group.

Oh, and dont complain about trails you dont help out on. Like the Honda ATV commercial says "Trails dont clear themselves". They dont design themselves, clear themselves, grade themselves, arrow themselves, clean themselves.

Lets see how this one flies................

Robert

:applause: Nobody wants to trade insults; yet at the same time.....nobody wants to be told that we can't possibly work together because one group feels that they should ride all the trails everybody else does....PLUS just as many as they can close off for "just themselves" also. ;) (which is the dirty little secret that our local AMA chapters have been trying to pull off for years up here in Michigan).

I'll make my 2nd point sometime this weekend.

[The Bottom Line]

If we team up together as off-road riders...we have a much bigger voice and voting power.

How can you argue with that? :worthy:

[The Bottom Line]

"...If you are not already the minority you soon will be. Now you can join together and have a larger voice in what happens to the trails or you can stay divided, fighting about stupid things and let the greenies close it all down... Closed minds lead to closed trails...

In regards to the greenies: It has always amazed me that with so much dicvision in our ranks and such blatant lip service ti such issues as safety (when's the last time you saw the AMA go all out on the helmet issue?) or self-policing our own (how many groups are lock-step with law enforcement and encouraging the type of stiff penalties that keep idiots off the trail for good?).....that they haven't effectively shut us all down without so much as even firing a shot.

Great comment.

[The Bottom Line]

I totally agree that all OHV peoples need to get it together or lose what we have. Irregardless of what we ride.

I do however, have no love for the majority of quad riders that I have "run into". I'll leave it at that.

The newer generations of dirt bikers are even getting under my skin too. I blame this on the parents and not on the kids.

Perhaps an ettiquite class should be required at all off road parks before one can ride there?


I'm not impressed either beyond the parents and kids who I have witnessed take our hosted safety classes......and that is exactly why I feel that groups like the AMA and ATVA have got to start quit worrying about pandering to the lowest common denominator among us for membership money....and get TOUGH on just what being a responsible off-road enthusiast "used" to be all about. Our leaders have certainly been more worried that our year-to-year membership money will indeed provide them with a steady job over time;, than they have been about standing up for what's right and finding out just how many people out here support that concept.

[ob1quixote]

:applause: Nobody wants to trade insults; yet at the same time.....nobody wants to be told that we can't possibly work together because one group feels that they should ride all the trails everybody else does....PLUS just as many as they can close off for "just themselves" also. ;) (which is the dirty little secret that our local AMA chapters have been trying to pull off for years up here in Michigan).

I'll make my 2nd point sometime this weekend.


My local trails were 20 miles single track, 20 miles dual track.
Not any more. Can you guess how many miles of single track now?{0}
Can you guess how many miles of single track are planned for the future?{0}
Do you know how far I have to drive to ride single-track, that should be available right here?{none left in my state}


If a trail must be open to every user group, better start fighting to ride the horse, hiking and mountain biking trails. Oddly enough, most people find that ridiculous, and rightfully so.

But if an offroad cycler complains about lack of and loss of their preferred trail, single track, theres something wrong with that?

Yes there needs to be ATV-width trails, Does that mean that only ATVs can ride them? There also needs to be single track. Should ATVs be on single track?

Why do cyclers like single track? There are 2 good reasons. ATV width trails are not as techically challenging, just like an interstate compared to a twisty mountain 2-lane. ATV width trail encourage higher speeds, just like an interstate. Higher speeds are more dangerous.

The needs of the ATV crowd and bike crowd are similar, yet different. And the opposition to each of them is similar, yet different too.

And like I said before, the reasonable cycling crowd has got to be more inclusive of reasonable ATVers. The boneheads of both sides are already lost for the most part.

Personally, I think its already a done deal. The stereotypical cycler and the stereotypical ATVer are becoming the norm. Two polarized factions with extremely similar needs that cant work together.

Just what the Eco-Nazi's ordered, a disorganized array of interests that can hardly work amongst themselves, much less the other similar interest. Yup. they are lovin' it.

Ride your trails while you have them. The inability of the two groups to work together will spell the end of those trails, when the Eco's come to town. Its just a matter of time............


Robert

[ob1quixote]

And as far as inflammatory posts, I respectfully request that the problem post be removed, instead of the thread locked.

This an important issue.

Robert

[450TrailRider]

I am very thankful that I live where I do. These problems just dont exist around me. ( or I am blind to them one. ) My area has trail systems that are better on ATV, and trails that are better on bike. The single track that we have has not been killed by ATV's, and there is plenty of it left.

I just pick who I want to ride with this weekend and go to an ATV or Bike friendly trail system AND RIDE.

From hearing all of you, there has been some hurt feelings made along the way and I am just very glad that I don't know what it is like to have to harbor that much hate against a fellow Off-Roader.

[The Bottom Line]

"....Nope, I've all but given up. I recently joined the Blue Ribbon Coalition, and plan to join the AMA (and I'm a member of numerous other special interest groups) - but I'm spent on trying to get any decent ORV laws out of the Michigan legislature.

Hate to take such a defeatist attitude, but I've been on the losing side of this fight for about 20 years...."

I stood up at an NRC meeting a few months ago with the director in atendance and wondered out loud how many good people before me had been burned out in the same manner you evidently have been in just 5 short (it seemed long) years. The AMA and their cronies are so entrenched into our relationship with the DNR that a recent proposal to actually CLOSE DOWN portions of the system is now going through at whose request?...why the motorcyclists, of course! What better way to dramatically prove that they need more trails than the atvers IN THE ABSENCE OF MODERN TRAIL MAINTENANCE EQUIPMENT...than to do parallel studies of two sections of trails that have never been maintained! ("see how this cycle trail 'came back' so quickly....you need to build more of these!" :rolleyes: ).

Yeah, I'm burnt out also.....it's just that maybe my anger at these arrogant bastard's attempt to not only get away with this; but effectively divide this entire community in the process....maybe burns my arse more than the thought of giving up; which I've threatened to many times anything (and is possibly what continues to keep me still trying to educate people as to what exactly is going on here).

Thanks for the local insight....it's encouraging to see that you see these hurdles in much the same manner.

[The Bottom Line]

sigint...I have have thought about it many times, even thought about being a lobbiest to get my feet wet in Washington. I would have to get some pretty big support around here and in the forums to make it happen.

About all I can say is that I would generously support the first person I ever witnessed who brought these two groups together on either the same trail or parallel routes.

The problem being that one group feels that they darn well shouldn't have to share (quote/unquote) their trails with anybody...and for god's sake not right next to a quad trail that wouldn't give them the "privacy" they seek. :rolleyes:

There is absolutely no way that, in 2020, we are going to possess enough off-road trails in this country that one group of declining ridership should EVER maintain sole control of exclusive trails. Yet that is exactly what these people are positioning for now and the rest of us better darn well soon wake up to it (I'm sorry, but this is the people's property; not some ridership that keeps showing their uglier side every day).

[Dan_Lorenze]

Where I ride, quads can't fit.... No problem.. I mostly ride single track.

[Ud_Luz]

I imagine the regular quad guys are going to get really annoyed. I saw some sort of ATV this weekend that had side by side seats in the front. I swear it was as large as my old WWII army jeep.

I can see it now, the dirtbikers against the quads, the quads against the monster atvs and the monster atvs against all of the bikes and quads because they go too fast and make too much noise.

I suppose though that the quantity of beer the side by side atv can carry would cause most of the riders to be passed out at the side of the trails(now highways).

[Jeff@TheQuadShop]

Come on guys, I'm an A class GNCC bike racer and a pro class GNCC quad racer. Many times the bikes do more damage than the quads. In the MidSouth series for instance, they purposely run the quads after the bikes to fill in all the bike ruts. There have been races where the ruts are so bad during the bike race that you have to paddle your way all the way around the coarse. But by the end of the quad race most all those ruts are filled back in.
Both bikes and quads will cause damage and we should work together to educate the ones that don't tread lightly (bikes and quads) in our riding areas instead of working against one another.
Some of you are acting so predjudice and refuse to work together to keep riding areas open. Its a true shame.

[KTM265]

I would say a good start to taking back our grounds is to start by taking back control of the AMA and other special interest groups and make sure our voice is being heard as off-road users. When was the last time anyone called the AMA and went to a local district meeting? The last dist meeting I went to was nothing by local groups complaining about dates for their races... I think we got bigger issues to resolve. Do we have any AMA officers reading this forum? Do they really know how we feel and what we want done?

[bronco78]

Come on guys, I'm an A class GNCC bike racer and a pro class GNCC quad racer. Many times the bikes do more damage than the quads. In the MidSouth series for instance, they purposely run the quads after the bikes to fill in all the bike ruts. There have been races where the ruts are so bad during the bike race that you have to paddle your way all the way around the coarse. But by the end of the quad race most all those ruts are filled back in.
Both bikes and quads will cause damage and we should work together to educate the ones that don't tread lightly (bikes and quads) in our riding areas instead of working against one another.
Some of you are acting so predjudice and refuse to work together to keep riding areas open. Its a true shame.

Your dead on,, with regards to damage to the trail base
:thumbsup:

And every one that has suggested,, like or dislike the other motor vehicle style.. we have to gang together,, or loose what we want is also dead on track.

There are still huge issues on quad use besides who does the most damage to a trail.

Quads do, ruin the single track trails,,,,, that just is,,, not saying the bikes do not do damage to the single track,, just that,, it is no longer a single track after quads run back and forth a few times. So that is an issue.

It may just be regional, and it may just be perception,, but my regional perception is,, there are many more irresponsible quad riders then bike riders. So that is an issue. Notice please quad riders, I used the words "more".. implying I do recognize there are idiot bikers out there on the same trails.

And I thing that group from both disciplines needs more education, and experience... The question is how?

Lastly,, there is always the 10%.. they will do what ever they want,, irregardless of laws, rules, regulations, or common sense. They will see friends and family hurt, and continue there ways. They will be kicked out of camping areas, riding areas, and just move on to new places,, to be kicked out of them at a later time. Bikes and quad rides,, will always have to deal with them,, and john q public will most likely always take this small minority as the representatives of the rest of the group,, Cuz it is who the "see" they see that 10%, being ticketed, in the back of police cars, being loaded in ambulances, they treat them in hospitals, they listen to them in restaurants and bars, at little league games and at family BBq's. John Q public never "sees" the rest of us.. and that is what we ,, Off Road Vehicle users need to change. They need to SEE us, a large voting public group as a force.. One that admits there is small group of users that need to guidance,, but the rest of us can work together to build trails, and work within the regulations , rules and laws.

[SpottedMarley]

i think with atvs, your percentages are backwards.. i think there's about 10% thoughtful riders and 90% clueless banshees.

- hey, come to think of it.. there's actually a quad named "banshee" .. kinda ironic.. dontcha think?

[bronco78]

i think with atvs, your percentages are backwards.. i think there's about 10% thoughtful riders and 90% clueless banshees.

- hey, come to think of it.. there's actually a quad named "banshee" .. kinda ironic.. dontcha think?
You may be right,, the numbers are all just BS,, not actual statistics,,

I believe there are three primary groups of quad users..

1: Work, farm, home use

2: Serious sport, that includes the racers, and trail riders

3: And the ones who get the most attention,, you all know the stereotype, so I'll not go into it.

The break down of numbers between groups is regional I think.. And very different in different areas.

[Tubo]

It's not about cycle and quad riders getting together and becoming a unified force. It's about the number of ORV's on the trails due to the limited skill required to ride a quad and the resulting damage caused by the increased traffic. It's easy for timber companies to ignore a few dozen bikes. They cannot ignore hundreds of quads. Another true statement- The only person in 30 years to be killed in my riding area was a teenager on a quad. Government sponsored riding areas and private riding parks are eventually going to be the only places left to ride if the influx of quads doesn't stop.

[kgbg]

I am a sport quad rider, I live in Utah, I ride Dunes and Desert, and MX tracks, so I am not the guy ruining your single track. I have a family, and we all ride together, we do not do the things that the idiots do.
I am also a member of the BRC, AMA, Utah ATV association, and more. I am young, 29, and trying to become part of the new blood in these organizations.
Its a fact that almost any of ATV from any brand out sells ALL motorcycles of that same brand. So the numbers will not lie. There are going to be more ATV's, and therefore more idiots on ATV's. There are idiots on sport quads, riding weelies throught he parking lots, doing donuts in the meadows, and jumping dunes with no spotter. Idiots on Deer Hunters (utility ATV's) breaking their own trails, showing how their new winch will break a tree, and tossing beer cans from their cooler to the trail side. There are idiots on KX250's jumping trail crossings, roosting my wife on purpose in the dunes, and thinking they are part of the Metal Mulisha.

Are any one of these guys worse than the other, nope.

Are any of these reasons good enough to abandon the fight to keep trails open (knowing that you are fighting for Brian Deegan wanna be's, and drunk hunter beer can thrower 4x4 atv guy)? Nope.

Our club is small and local, we do struggle with the issues you talk about, when is the next ride, new T shirts, ect. But, we also pride ourselves in working with the BLM, ATV Safety Institute, and the BRC.

It is easy to say quads suck, or dirt bikes suck, and I am not working with them for anything. The same person who said that, would have another reason to do nothing if we were all on 2 wheels.
Quit covering laziness with predjudice.
If we got 10% of the uninvolved riders, we could change the landscape entirely.

[KTM265]

My club has done hare scrambles for many years...quad and bikes and the only injury where we needed to take the rider to the hospital...neck and back broken, was a bike rider. Accidents happen...Yes I will agree quad crashes are more dangerous. You have a lot more mass in that quad with less suspension, it's going to be ugly. I race the quad throughout the midwest and I see a lot less knee and leg injuries with quad racers then bike racers... Seem like all my buddies I ride bikes with have all had knee surgery or in need of it. Every sport will have it share of common injuries. I agree with stats...anyone can make numbers say what they need them to say. There is only one number that we should worry about and that is 1. One unified group of off-road riders that say enough is enough, if you are jerk abusing the trails, quad or bike...we want you to leave. Go ride on private ground where we could careless what happens to you but leave the public lands to those who do care and want to continue to enjoy our riding areas without destroying them. How many of you have gone out and improved the trails around you...cleaning up trash, replanting trees...etc? Chime in if you have, lets hear some positive comments and suggestions.