[yzman400]

Ya know something just occured to me. All 37 or so of TBL's posts are in this thread. Looks like someone joined TT just to stir up a hornets nest.

Now were is that ignore button again????? Ahhh there it is... Much better.

[2TrakR]

John,
I'm disappointed. I waited all weekend for you to get back to work so you could post an in depth follow up. You teased me on Monday with a couple of excuses but promised to have more to say today. Not enough time to do so, you say, but you can quote my very latest post so you've at least read all of it. Bummer, I thought you were better than that.


If you claim to have answered all my questions

I have. If you want to ask questions about, or just discuss, Holton/Horseshoe or other trail items in the HMNF system (or elsewhere in Michigan) fire away. I've refuted your claims of land grabs with hard evidence to the contrary, at least acknowledge those points and dispute them with something other than your feelings on the matter. When and if you do, please take the time to refer to the correct agencies when talking about our land. The Michigan Department of Natural Resources (Forest, Mineral and Fire Management Division) manages State owned land. The United States Forest Service manages National owned land. The Huron-Manistee National Forest is managed by the USFS, not the DNR.
While you are at it, tell me about which portions you used to ride on HH, legally and with your ATV. Having just ridden that trail system on this past Sunday I'm curious as to how you transported your unlicensed vehicle on county roads to connect the trail segments.


my experience in being called every name in the book; comes from people within your own organization that have witnessed this first-hand; not yourself.

Chuckle, that's funny. First you do the name calling and justify it by saying I and those like me do, then you say that I don't but that the others do. Wolf Wolf. Find a new topic.


Do you want to talk about maintenance equipment?
Uh huh. Fourth or fifth time I've asked in a plain fashion.


Then FIRST allow discussion to procede in regards to just what your group is doing right now in regards to keeping the volunteer maintenance program "afloat"... for the sake of what DNR field officers told me many years ago:
...."this "machete-only" money not only funds trail work; but causes those who derive their income from using outdated methods...to make certain that modern equipment never puts them out of a job when (inevitably) these same funds get diverted to those modern machines!"


Ok, even though I've not stifled any discussion as you indicate above, here's my start of the discussion.
My group represents approximately 2/3 (maybe a little less) of the trail maintenance grant sponsors. We maintain trails at the specification set forth by the DNR (& USFS in some instances) for that trail system. Maintenance includes removal of brush & deadfall to achieve the width set forth by the specification (40/50/72 depending on trail system); signage including regulatory signs and confidence markers.
The CCC also contracts for 750 miles of trail grading per year which is then applied to portions of some trail systems as set forth by the DNR & USFS. There are other grant sponsors who also contract for grading but I am not sure on total mileage. Typically this has been snowmobile groups who maintain ORV Routes.
Trail grading, for those not familiar with MI's setup, is a separate item from "maintenance". It's designed for whoop removal and does a nice job of it.
To your question, we participate in the program and by doing so keep it afloat as you say, just as others who participate in it do so. The program is actually kept afloat by ORV Sticker money, that's what pays for it.
As for implying that I don't use modern equipment, just what is modern and just what would be appropriate for trail maintenance? You imply you have extensive knowledge in the field & I certainly am willing to find better ways. I have a whole list of tools and equipment I use, I'm certain it would be fun to compare with what you think is appropriate.


O.K.! ......I guess it's back to correcting what tried to be passed off as "factual" in days gone by (this may take a while;

Quit teasing us, you've used this excuse 3 times too many now.

But, since I'm interested in your points of view, I did a little digging. Here's some of your posts from Michigan Dirt Slingers back in May, ATVConnection and Utility OffRoad. (I don't frequent these boards, but did go looking for you today).

Some interesting points. You flat out refuse to name names and groups here, but you've had no problem using names on those other boards. You tune here is the same as it is elsewhere although you tend to degrade whichever group you can whenever you can (Bikes/ATVs/RUVs/Legislators/Clubs).

Three things ring consistent from reading your other posts.
1. You hate cyclists with a passion.
2. You bitch about everything and do NOTHING about it other than bitch; this includes saying what an organization should do but neglect the fact that orgs are made up of individual members, those being who do the actual work. Never once have you actually joined in and done trail maintenance or tried self policing those in the ORV community who break the law - 2 items you repeatedly stress as being in need of change.
3. You make it a point to degrade Michigan and it's ORV Program whenever the opportunity presents itself and when there is no opportunity you make one yourself.


What they don't tell you is that they have also threatened to drop out of this same program and should have been replaced with a bulldozer the second they suggested it.
....
My days of riding atvs are pretty much over unless a required width makes me break out the Sportsman (one lonely machine).
....
The trails have always been in crappy condition and have forced me to take my money out of this state because of our reluctance to get behind the kind of heavy machinery needed to properly maintain it. Take the 100 miles of the Tomahawk Trail....."an atv trail that is maintained to motorcycle standards"....give me a break.
....
At least in Michigan; the issue of how we will maintain our trails in the future is being effectively blocked by one group and one man who derive their income from making sure we continue to do it by hand.
....
I've spent 5 long years searching for somebody in this state who isn't afraid to step up in Lansing and straighten some people out for the sake of building a sustainable legacy for our children.
....
I have found absolutely nobody willing to stand up to these people and it has gotten so out of hand here in Michigan that they are writing laws/putting up barricades to block our legal right to access these trails (new Horshoe/Holton Trail) and getting the DNR to go along with proposing that probably the last new trail ever built in this state be MOTORCYCLE ONLY.


Finally got somewhere with your statements made on other boards. You wouldn't commit to a minimum width trail on ThumperTalk, but you did on MDS; indicating that bulldozers should be used on all trails. Sounds pretty wide to me.
The remaining statements only work to reinforce your obvious lack or interest in finding out specifics (or the truth as I call it) as well your interest in only bitching about a situation.

[2TrakR]

Ok I have kept quiet long enough. <snip good stuff>


Well said, YZMan. As for stirring the pot by TBL, he's quite good at it judging by his posts on the "other" forums. What's more interesting is he doesn't seem to incur these "computer ate my post" problems with his hundreds of messages elsewhere. Hmmm, conspiracy theory indeed.

[Tubo]

Just something from the post about the "10 worst bikes of all time" put out by Off-Road Magazine. It fits with this topic.
"2. ANY THREE-WHEELER. Yup, the All- Terrain Cycle, or ATC, was introduced by Honda to let people who didn't have the skills to balance a regular two-wheeled bike ride in the dirt. Cute little buggers, the ATCs sold like crazy. Then savvy people started noticing that they handled like a shopping cart loaded with bowling balls with one locked front wheel going down a flight of stairs"

[The Bottom Line]

[QUOTE=2TrakR]"...Quit teasing us, you've used this excuse 3 times too many now....."

No excuses here. I've told you several times that the way (at least) "I" operate.... is to take each post one at a time and in the order that the facts were misrepresented. Your post today may get answered several weeks from now, for the simple fact that...#1).... I only have so much time to waste on those that distort the truth and ...#2)... some of your replies from weeks ago are in the form of a request for more information (see the attack on my character regarding exactly why I have quit some clubs and the request to explain these situations further). You may enjoy picking out which subjects you would like to avoid (see the now infamous "Huron Forest Land Grab Attempt" you avoided mentioning once again :rolleyes: )....."I" (on the other hand) prefer to keep answering each distortion in its proper order with absolutely no regard to what YOUR schedule or agenda might happen to be.

There is no 'timetable' when it comes to the truth. And I will do my best to keep plugging away at uncovering it; while ignoring your daily distortions until they are ALL answered in the exact order in which they were received (my bad for deviating from this).

Thanks for being so patient. :rolleyes:

[ride_red]

[QUOTE=2TrakR]"...Quit teasing us, you've used this excuse 3 times too many now....."

Make that 4. RR.

[bronco78]

There is no 'timetable' when it comes to the truth. Nor is there any respect for your blatant attempt to push your agenda as main stream... You are a single person who claims to represent many,, yet the many will have nothing to do with you. :thumbsup:

Your reasoning is faulty at best, if not malicious and intentionally misleading.

You do not respond with clear, intelligent counter points to the debated question, instead you spew rhetoric,based on your personal feelings and opinions.

You claim to have information, you represent as fact, yet post only innuendo, snide comments and hearsay.

You believe what you want to belieave,, and anyone with a differing opinion or cause, is blasted by you with a derogatory comment..

Your continued statements that all trails must be accessable by all, and any differering position is wrong,, is simply your opinion,, and from what I have seen here, and other boards I have found you posting to,, you are alone there too.. You do not represent anyone but your self.. And thats fine,,,until you mislead, lie, and insinuate,, otherwise.. You have zero credibility to me,, and from the respones I read here and other boards,,, very few people will even acknowledge you as a Representative of the off roading comunity,, let alone,, Their Representative.

I think someplace in all your failed attempts at pushing your personal vision of what all trails,, must be,, in order to fit your version of right,, you may have some valid points..,, but it is lost in a sea of drivel..

The above is the personal opinion of bronco78, and is not stated as a position of TT owners, or implied as a position of anyone but bronco78

[Tubo]

Hey Bronco78: Remind me never to get on your bad side.

[The Bottom Line]

[QUOTE=2TrakR]Use names or stop. One or the other. I don't know who you are referring to, admittedly I have a vague idea, but not enough to pursue it. I asked for a name, you completely side stepped it.

I don't use names because I don't have to. :rolleyes:
The names haven't changed in regards to who thinks orv matters in Michigan should be discussed behind closed doors only and won't change in the near future. "Vague idea" my arse..... :rolleyes:

".....What? The computer ate your homework so now I have to assume what you said?....."

Here goes my account of attempting to get involved in Michigan orv issues one more time:

My first atv club meeting found us all at some parking lot in the Detroit area; witnessing this huge decked out trailer pull in with all the bells and whistles. Out jumps the president and not a half-hour later we are being given the low down regarding "regular" memberships....and "exclusive" memberships with "preferrential benefits" for those that had joined just a short time earlier than most of the mere "regular' members present.
I naturally asked the first stupid question of what would turn out to be a long list of "uncomfortable" ones (see this thread :rolleyes: ) in regards to just why anybody in any club should be treated any differently than the next. This immediately sparked somewhat of a "revolt" within those gathered around us (curiously, the "founding members" didn't say much) and we soon witnessed the presidents face quickly turn three shades of red.... while backpedaling like I've never seen before! :eek:
I will never forget the first words out of his mouth that 'should have' foretold all of what was to come....."Wwwwwell I had to tell these guys (founding members) SOMETHING! :excuseme:

About the only thing "prophetic" that this man came up with on that day 5 years ago; was that he alluded to the fact that one group was "strongarming the DNR" and that he "woudn't name them". Not having the time to investigate this statement further....I then joined a motorcycle group.

While becomming increasingly uncomfortable with the fact that leadership in the atv group was also in the business of taking parents for all they could get (note my mention earlier of charging parents to attend their kid's training classes) I thought I'd ask my new-found leadership in the 'motorcycle' group just why there were no programs being implimented to get modern maintenance equipment on the job in Michigan. This is when leadership informed me that if "it was up to them....they would NOT maintain trails any wider than their handlebars". This statement was very clear and given in a manner which left no doubt as to its intent. Motorcyclists were "God" in Michigan and there was no way any darn atver would even so much as DISCUSS the trail maintenance issue with "God" himself! (the arrogance of this leadership showed through so quickly that I'm not sure why I gave this guy the time of day when I did).

As the membership of the atv group I had joined were threatening my health for "DARING" to question their non-elected leadership if I showed up on their maintenance runs (they would all later quit his club over the exact same questions :rolleyes: ).....I decided to join an out of state club whose views on safety I didn't bother to research.

More on this club and the national group I had to quit later...when I have the time. ;)

[bronco78]

Said a bunch, but comunicated very little


After wading through your post.. I took away this:

You still have not named, described, or linked to the modern trail maintenance machine, that will perform trail maintenance on current trails. Who makes this machine? where is one in use today, by any group to maintain a typical length single and/or two track trail? Please do not post links or descriptions to bulldozers. As they are incapable or performing any sort of maintenance on what the majority on this forum would call a trail. Yes a D7 could be used to make "trails" for your farm equipment version of an off road vehicle.. But the rest of the off roading community here does not consider that an ATV.



Your posts all have a common theme... everybody is the problem but you. You are right,, every body else is wrong, misguided, or against what is "right"

You have been asked several times to use names., You continue to say you do not have to.. In my experience, that infers, you do not actually have any names and quoted statements that will stand up to inspection. Or,, you do not possess the mature ability and conviction of your position to say out loud, where you will be held accountably for your words. Instead you obfuscate, hide behind innuendo and snide remarks. Please,, if you have the ability to accept responsibility for your words. State in clear text,, the people you accuse.

You were asked,, when and with who you have ever performed trail maintenance with? Yet continue to side step that question, again confirming,, you are willing to complain,, but do nothing more then that to improve what is today. I hope you will prove me wrong on at least this point… Please,, tell us,, what trail you have worked on? With who and when? I really do hope you will answer this,, as I can respect a differing opinion, so long as, while objecting on premise, a continued effort is maintained for the betterment of the group.

Your make statements that you had to quit a group,, that your health was threatened by a group. These, would seem to be troubling statements in there own right. Please name the group, and members that threatened you? And or, the groups that made you quit? These tactics do not represent the off roading community well, and there for should be public knowledge, So we can act. As well as the local authorities notified. I assume you have those reports?

Again,, I applaud anyone who fights for what they believe in.. and I think,, you may have a point I might agree with someplace in the 30 or so post you have laid down on us (an astute observation was made, in that,, you come to TT, and only post here on this thread... I would normally call this the action of a Troll.. . Do you by chance own or ride a 4 stroke thumper? The very purpose of this internet site?)

[yzman400]

More on this club and the national group I had to quit later...when I have the time

Man I bet you hate the way the government is run also. You better stop paying taxes and stop supporting them also. See how far you get with that one.

TBL, it looks to me that there is no "perfect off road club" in your eyes. Every off road club has problems so severe that they are not deemed worthy of your presence. Heres a piece of news for you. No off road club will ever stand up to your high standards. If you want to fix the problems then get involved in the clubs. Work with the personel and help fix the problems instead of sitting on the sidelines throwing stones. If a clubs leadership bothers you. Work your way up in the ranks and run for office. In most offroad clubs I know of the officials are elected. If you try to run for office and are not elected, what would that tell ya. That maybe you need to take a good long look at yourself and the way you interact with others. Because it sure looks like you aint making any friends around here. And this group will talk to most anyone.

[KTM265]

Bottom line...you are way out of line. I own a family of quads and several bikes, not every trail is made for the quads and you need to respect that simple fact. It's not always the bikes or conservation officers who make a trail single track but sometimes mother-nature has something to do with it and going in with any type of maintainer to widen it out so you can get an over-sized golf cart down it isn't the answer. How about expanding your skills and get the right tools for the trails you decide you want to explore...wide trail, take your quads...tight trail/single track, swing your leg over a bike.

[bbbom]

there are several ATV clubs around here who have cleared 100 miles of old grown in trails. They are members of pantra and when the snow comes they switch to the ATV's cause the bikes are too hard to ride in the snow. I guess it just depends on the area, the atv'ers here are great. I am one of them.

Chris

WOAH there lewichris!!! :eek: PANTRA is NOT and never has been an ATV club! We are a DIRTBIKE club and yes, we have cleared, maintained, built and protected 100's of miles of trails since we were first established in 1994. Very few of us ever ride quads, some do but very few. In the winter we don't park the bikes and jump on quads, we load them up & head west to central Washington or pull out the snowmobiles.

There is an Idaho ATV club that started clearing grown over trails but the greenies sued the FS so that got shut down. Not sure what the status is currently.

Some of our members do have quads, snowmobiles, jetski's and even horses, backpacks & hiking boots but our club's focus is dirtbikes.

We work with the other groups and have been involved with several local land managing agencies including the FS, BLM, Idaho Parks & Rec, Washington State Parks, Washington State Dept of Natural Resources, Spokane County and several others. We are extremely involved with these agencies from attending public meetings, to joining focus groups and volunteering for many many hours of on the ground work on the trails.

It has been interesting reading about the problems in Michigan (sorry TLB but I started skipping your posts after the first couple because they made no sense).

Some things that we have found in our various meetings with all the other user groups - hikers, environmentalists, wilderness advocates, mtb'ers, horse people, ATV'ers, snowmobilers, 4x4'ers and the management staff is that everyone knows there are not enough ATV trails. BUT and it's a big BUT, of all the groups the only one that often has NO representation at the meetings - its the ATVers!

We have gone so far as to send flyers out to local shops well in advance of these public meetings, urging all motorized users to show up. My boyfriend works at a local shop and he has personally called ATV customers to personally remind them of the meetings. Sometimes they show, sometimes they don't. We end up standing up for them but we will never give up fighting to save our singletrack from being widened out to dual track.

Someone earlier asked where the ATV's were supposed to ride - do what we did. Get organized, get involved!

We are currently working with the FS and all the other user groups (hopefully with some ATV enthusiasts that will keep showing up) to develop a plan for quad trails. Too bad the ATVers can't step in and help out a little more!

It's interesting that in the meetings on the Colville NF, the general consensus has always been that there needs to be trails for all the different uses. We need some 4x4 roads and yep, everyone can use them. We need some ATV trails and everyone but 4x4's can use em. We need some dirtbike (aka singletrack motorized) trails and everyone that can fit on a singletrack trail can use em. We need non-moto trails that everyone without a motor can use, we need non-mechanized trails for horses & hikers only, we need hiker only trails.

There are many trails that by their location alone are restricted to certain uses. I've hiked many trails that I wouldn't take a horse or mtb on. I've horsebacked & mtb'd trails that I wouldn't want to take my dirtbike on. I've dirtbiked on trails that a quad has no business even thinking about and I wouldn't really want my horse (if I still had him) on.

The point is, we have actually succeeded in educating the land managers in our area AND the non-motorized people that have been involved in these meetings on the difference between singletrack, dualtrack and roads. They understand that the distinction is NOT moto & non-moto. They also understand that those of us that attend these meetings and do the trail work, are NOT the ones they need to worry about.

I agree that ATV'ers and dirtbikers need to work together BUT we also need to work with those that are against us and educate them. It's a ton of work, I had at least one meeting a week most of 2003 which tapered off to only a couple a month finally BUT when you walk into a meeting and the staunchest enviro hikers are more than happy to talk to you and have a DISCUSSION about possible solutions, you just gotta believe that something can be worked out.

Come on out & join us lewichris - PANTRA is a great group to ride with and there is a reason that the local land managers call us when they need a motorized group to help out. www.pantra.org

[TopWop]

TBL makes a claim that someone from the CCC told him that if it were up to them,that the ORV trails in Michigan would be no wider than a cycles handlebar width.And some of you dont feel like TBL has a right to dispute that?

The CCC strong arms the DNR with THREATS of QUITTING the trail maintenance program if certain things were'nt up to the CCC's likings and now TBL has no right to dispute that either?

I dont KNOW for a FACT if those things were said because I was'nt there,however,I have PERSONALLY heard CCC personel tell an entire ORV board in Lansing that the CCC consisted of about 35% ATV membership.Therefore,I wont discredit what TBL says was told to him.

Now with a total CCC membership base of about 5000,that would mean that the CCC has about 1750 ATV members?I was'nt born yesterday and I really doubt that these ATV numbers are even CLOSE?That would make the CCC the largest ATV related club in the State of Michigan,and EVERYBODY knows when they hear of the CCC,they think of off road cycles and dual sport cycles,NOT ATVs!Heck,I MIGHT be the ONLY member of the CCC that actually rides a quad?[kidding]

Im WONDERING to myself WHY a CCC leader would make-up a phony stat like that in the first place?It than hit me that perhaps this leader wants folks to see what a versatile ORV club he has,CYCLES and ATVs!It sure would be much easier to acheive certain things in regards to your ORV sport if you can make the powers that be beleive you are a versatile ORV club instead of one sided[cycle only]....

I dont agree with everything TBL says and have even had some minor disagreements with him in the past,but one thing I know for sure,he is not a GREENIE and he is NOT a TREE HUGGER.This is the same guy that laid OUT 100s of his OWN dollars to make sure that the kids on the West side of Michigan had some type of ORV training for the last two yrs,when NOBODY else even gave a damn about making it happen in the first place,not even the dealers.

Trails?
I also dont think we need another trail in the State of Michigan that supports CYCLE ONLY.These guys allready have access to EVERY mile of trail we have for ORV use.Im not against cycle only trails,but I am against adding even one more mile of single track only trail to a system that has seen an EXPLOSION of ATVs throughout the yrs.

Its hightime we address 2005 and let the needs of the 1980s be but a distant figure!

[ob1quixote]

What kills me is that evidently Michigan has 3000 miles of trails, and South Carolina has about 164. It sure sounds like you guys have it pretty good, and still seem to have some pretty major problems.

I am blessed to live 40 miles from the largest trail system in the state, with 40 miles of public trails. The next closest trails are almost 2 hours away, and the trail is only 18.1 miles long.

Count your blessings.

Robert

[2TrakR]

TBL makes a claim that someone from the CCC told him that if it were up to them,that the ORV trails in Michigan would be no wider than a cycles handlebar width.And some of you dont feel like TBL has a right to dispute that?

I dispute that the statement was made by the current Executive Director of the CCC and I base that on the fact that I called Bill and asked him last Friday. He says no such statement was made. Since I checked the alleged source and it was refuted I've asked TBL to clarify or provide some other proof that it did happen.
Now, IF it was made and was under the context of the entire CCC being of that opinion, then I wholesale disagree simply 'cause we DO already maintain trails wider than 40". What better way to prove what you say then to actually do that very thing?


The CCC strong arms the DNR with THREATS of QUITTING the trail maintenance program if certain things were'nt up to the CCC's likings and now TBL has no right to dispute that either?

Tell me about this issue, what happened and why. TBL has stated this has negatively affected the program, do you know what he bases this belief on?


I have PERSONALLY heard CCC personel tell an entire ORV board in Lansing that the CCC consisted of about 35% ATV membership.Now with a total CCC membership base of about 5000,that would mean that the CCC has about 1750 ATV members?I was'nt born yesterday and I really doubt that these ATV numbers are even CLOSE?That would make the CCC the largest ATV related club in the State of Michigan,and EVERYBODY knows when they hear of the CCC,they think of off road cycles and dual sport cycles,NOT ATVs!


Real numbers and it was also part of the recent conversation I mention above. When you send in your membership dues the application has check boxes for the type of vehicle you have. The numbers are based on that survey of 100% of it's membership. ATVs are owned (and most likely ridden) by 35% of CCC members. Does that surprise you? Maybe it would if you presume that those same members exclusively ride ATVs vs cycles which would be an incorrect assumption. Those same people marking ATVs as being owned/ridden ALSO mark cycles down and so apparently own, and probably ride, both.

So, the stat is true and honest, you've just seemed to infer more than was stated.

[HalfNutz]

TBL, I think you're full of crap. :confused: Get a life...... better yet, seek qualified psychiatric care.... your brain has melted. :crazy:

[The Bottom Line]

"...Heres a piece of news for you. No off road club will ever stand up to your high standards. If you want to fix the problems then get involved in the clubs. Work with the personel and help fix the problems instead of sitting on the sidelines throwing stones. If a clubs leadership bothers you. Work your way up in the ranks and run for office. In most offroad clubs I know of the officials are elected. If you try to run for office and are not elected, what would that tell ya. That maybe you need to take a good long look at yourself and the way you interact with others. Because it sure looks like you aint making any friends around here. And this group will talk to most anyone......"

In the first example I gave you (if you didn't bother to "pick and choose what you want to hear"; like your buddy Jeremy)....I made it very clear...that the largest atv club in the history of this state is run by ***UNELECTED*** leadership who have made it very clear THAT THIS WILL STAY THAT WAY. Just how long did you think it took for me to get them to ADMIT IT.....and just how long do you think it took before even their FOUNDING members finally got the picture and told them to stuff it?.

If you don't believe that this affects the average citizen's ability to get things done in this state (and don't start sidestepping now with crap about 'starting your own club' and that we shouldn't have bothered to address the non-representative leadership we were faced with when they were representing US on our state board)....then I hope you can see now why I've been ignoring your posts. (if you don't have the capacity to read and comprehend the entire story; your thoughts are meaningless to me, "sorry"...).

[The Bottom Line]

....and as for 2TRAKR's conversation with TopWop concerning who said what....don't fall for it Bill. These guys are simply trying to get specific organizations named and the people in them for the purposes of burning you with "slander" somewhere on down the line. :rolleyes:

They know EXACTLY who the players are here and this is EXACTLY why I've been pointing out to you guys for years why they flat out REFUSE to go "on the record" regarding ANYTHING of consequence. Why do you think guys like our former atv "God" would e-mail me that our relationship with the cyclists had to be at the "social level only"......then turn around and deny that he ever said it? Why do you think this handlebar width maintenance statement made over the phone...is being denied so vehemently now?

These guys are sitting in complete control of our orv system and I challenge you to name one person within our ranks or from the general public that has EVER been able to talk to these guys (or the DNR) without being treated like garbage (and if they did....who has ever come out of one of those meetings wothout being sworn to secrecy in regards to what was said?). Why is it that I've spent 5 years asking our leaders to simply bring questions in front of these guys and report back....yet they were always so "tough" :rolleyes: that nobody wanted to take a public position on them?

Here's a good example:
Why was it....that when I stood up at that last meeting and asked somebody just how much mileage the motorcyclists think they 'deserved' as a part of this new 25 year update plan.....THE MAN WAS SO ARROGANT THAT HE WOULDN'T EVEN TURN HIS HEAD TO LOOK AT THE GUY ASKING IT????

These guys are so afraid of the truth coming out in regards to what they have been pulling (gee, Bill G.; where are all those training funds from the 90's?) that they will certainly try and burn you for speaking it....make sure you don't give them the satisfaction. ;)

[2TrakR]

....and as for 2TRAKR's conversation with TopWop concerning who said what....don't fall for it Bill. These guys are simply trying to get specific organizations named and the people in them for the purposes of burning you with "slander" somewhere on down the line.

TBL, if "we" were looking for slander we need only go print your posts from the OTHER BOARDS. You are already busted, just name names to back up your allegations.
I see this is going nowhere fast as you have been unwilling to challenge the statements made in contradiction to your own nor even provide the information that you indicated was forthcoming. You've obviously found time to post more rhetoric even today, but your excuse to ignore the other items was lack of time.

[The Bottom Line]

Here's another 'good one' for all of you out there who believe that I've been "less than truthful" :rolleyes: throughout this thread.

After years of complaining to to our state officials about the arrogant treatment we had been receiving at the hands of these motorcyclists; their cohorts and even leadership within our OWN community..the state "out of the blue" ;) announces an opening for an "orv representative" on the advisory board.
They then simply start blowing off all of our compalints with: "if you don't like it...then run!".

Months go by (if not almost a full year) and (of course) they don't even bother advertising the position or keep the general public aware if it at each 3 month meeting. I finally stand up and want to know how in the heck we apply for this position that they "now" say won't be filled for another 6 months :confused: :rolleyes: ....and what do they FINALLY (after all that time) have to say, with the motorcyclists all gathered around with big old 'smirks' on their faces???

IF YOU ACTUALLY RIDE AN ORV.....YOU NEED NOT APPLY!


Just like that! No protest from the motorcycling community...why?....BECAUSE THEY ARE THE ONLY USERS ON THE BOARD OR POSESSING ANY ACCESS TO IT! :thumbsup:

The next statement really showed what these guys are all about. It was the state's response as to why our AMA member leader and his cronies on OUR orv advisory board weren't even "reachable" by the citizens of this state by any means whatsoever (one guy tried to counter that he "worked" for the state and that I could do a "search" instead of the state posting it on the web :rolleyes:)).

What did the state have to say?

THAT WE SHOULD FIRST BE ROUTING ALL OF OUR CONCERNS FOR THE ORV ADVISORY BOARD.....THROUGH THE VERY PERSON THAT THE CITIZENS OF THIS STATE WERE DEMANDING THAT OUR BOARD BE BRINGING OUR ISSUES FORWARD TO!.

And the motorcyclists???...... "again", they just sat there and grinned like they had just won the lottery!!! :applause: :applause: :applause:

Heck, they had been conversing with this "go to" guy so much "in private" (of course!)....that their leader hadn't ever even bothered to so much as stand up at one of these meetings and say anything of consequence beyond procedural crap....the whole time I had been going to them!

Again, this is the garbage these guys don't have ANYTHING to say about because their actions at the time these gross injustices occured...SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES (see their attempted land grab in the Huron Forest and how many times I've asked 2TRAKR to at least "comment" on it :rolleyes: ).

And they will try their damnest to burn you for simply speaking the truth about any of it.

[ob1quixote]

The funny thing is, I think TBL/BB may actually have a valid gripe in there somewhere.

But the possibly valid gripe is so deeply buried in his rhetoric, so disguised by his attitude, so obfuscated by intentional attempts to bypass questions with contorted non-answers, that the possibly valid gripe is completely hidden.

In the interest of finding some validity, I will ask one question that seems to arise often, yet never gets answered.

What trail maintenance machinery?

Manufacturer, model number, any implements necessary for trail maintenance will all be required for a proper answer.

When {and if} this question is answered properly, and replied to by those familiar with the particular situation, I will dredge through this quagmire to find another.

Think of me as Alex Trebek, and this is Trail Jeopardy{que music}. For the purposes of this show, answering in the form of a question will not be required.

{Ob1quixote is not a paid spokesman for anyone but himself. Acting as the host of an OHV Trail game show is inherently hazardous, do not attempt without parental supervision. Engine is shipped dry, add oil before operation.}

[2TrakR]

the state "out of the blue" ;) announces an opening for an "orv representative" on the advisory board.
IF YOU ACTUALLY RIDE AN ORV.....YOU NEED NOT APPLY!


http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10366_22654-73974--,00.html
Looks like the Advisory Board has one open position for a representative of the public at large (not ORV affiliated). I see a couple others are coming up for renewal though.
Is this the vacant position you refer to?

[TopWop]

Jeramey,
Im also a member of the CCC,so I know the box your refer to that we have to mark on our application form.I dont dispute that there may be 35% CCC members that checked the ATV box,I dispute the fact that there are 35% ATV only members in the CCC.

The CCC does not cater to ATVs anywhere near as much as the cycles,and most anybody I talk to,when we mention the CCC,they dont link them to ATVs,but to off road cycles..I'll refer you to the TRAIL RIDER magazine that we both get as being CCC members.HOW many events for ATVs do you see posted in the Trail Rider magazine when it arrives vs the amount of cycle or dual sport events?In most editions,there is no comparison.

As for the comment TBL made in regards to the statement made about CCC personel backing out of the trail maintenance program if certain issue's did'nt go their way?I dont THINK it was TBL that first brought this to my attention,I beleive it MIGHT have been the leader of a past club?It was awhile ago and my memory does not recall the details of this incident[getting OLD?]I do know that SOMEBODY did tell me that the CCC did strongarm the DNR if certain issues were not meant.I dropped it there.

The CCC gets grant $$ to do a variety of trail maintenace,so if they were paid to groom a 50 inch trail,they must maintain it,no matter what their beleifs are for trail specs.Just because the CCC maintains a trail wider than cycle handlebar width,does not indicate to me that TBLs statement is inncorrect.You get paid to do a job,you have to do it,no matter what your beleifs are.

[yzman400]

The CCC does not cater to ATVs anywhere near as much as the cycles,and most anybody I talk to,when we mention the CCC,they dont link them to ATVs,but to off road cycles..I'll refer you to the TRAIL RIDER magazine that we both get as being CCC members.HOW many events for ATVs do you see posted in the Trail Rider magazine when it arrives vs the amount of cycle or dual sport events?In most editions,there is no comparison.

Have you looked at the CCC schedule lattely?

http://www.cycleconservationclub.org/v_nav/ccc_events.html

10 of the 18 events include atv's

2 of the remaining 8 events are kids camp, and ohm Safety training.

So what does that leave 6 of the 18 events that dont include atv's?

5 of those remaining 6 events dont include me either because my bike is not street legal.

[2TrakR]

Im also a member of the CCC,so I know the box your refer to that we have to mark on our application form.I dont dispute that there may be 35% CCC members that checked the ATV box,I dispute the fact that there are 35% ATV only members in the CCC.


Feel free to call this semantics as that may well be what it is. I said that the 35% figure of CCC members with ATVs were NOT exclusive members. I said you inferred that from the original statement made at the Advisory Board. No disputing the rest. The CCC is first and foremost a cycle organization & ATVs are definitely, without question, secondary on their list of priorities.
But still, 35% of it's membership have ATVs, thus the CCC consists of about 35% ATV membership. The word "exclusive" was not used at the Advisory Board meeting.


I do know that SOMEBODY did tell me that the CCC did strongarm the DNR if certain issues were not meant.I dropped it there.


But you use that as part of the rationale, as TBL does, to blame other things on the CCC and I have an issue with that. Truth is that the CCC did request changes to the language in the Trail Maintenance Grant documents, issues relating to liability for one, which the CCC was legally required to request and without these changes they (we) were not going to be able to continue with trail maintenance.
No strongarming though; we were sued on a trail maintenance issue and the grant language made us legally responsible. That same liability exist(ed) for all Grant Sponsors.
No denying that the whole situation could have gone through smoother but when you are under court order to not discuss the topic in public, it's hard to let all the facts be known.
I dispute that the CCC "strongarmed" the DNR on this issue. I further dispute the results were negative for the program or trail maintenance itself. I stress that the results were beneficial for all Grant Sponsors (not just the CCC) but that further changes are needed still.

For those playing catch up, there is some hint of reality in the statements pushed earlier by TBL in regards to trail maintenance and the CCC opting to discontinue it's participation if language of the grants was not changed. Took me a few days of his posts to finally dig out what was being driven at - the original statements were that the CCC strongarmed the DNR on any/all issues and those statements are wrong..

[TopWop]

Jeramey,
you are correct,nobody in the ORV board meeting said that the 35% ATVers were exclusive,and I stand corrected if thats what I stated.

Did or did not the CCC threaten the DNR to back out of the trail maintenace program IF the WHITE CLOUD trail was given to another Grant Sponser for trail maintenance responsabilities?Im not entirely clear on this matter and can only refer you to what I was told by someone else.This does not in any way mean that is what happened or how it happened,however,if you know the details,I'd like to get YOUR side.

Thank You,
Bill

[2TrakR]

Did or did not the CCC threaten the DNR to back out of the trail maintenace program IF the WHITE CLOUD trail was given to another Grant Sponser for trail maintenance responsabilities?

Did not.
As with some other subjects I do see how this could have been inferred when it's 3rd or 4th hand information. This stuff happens to me as well..

The CCC did let their feelings be known that they would like to continue as the Grant Sponsor for that section of trail if for nothing other than sentimental reasons - after all it was THE first trail ever laid out by the CCC (back in '67/'68) and we maintained it purely on a volunteer basis for decades prior to the current maintenance program. So, sure, we did want that trail. No threats of quitting were made over the issue though. When the trail was recently given to the USFS we made our concerns known again.

[BIGGITY]

If you want to see what the only thing a quad is good for go grab the Jan issue of Racer "X" and look at page 184 thru 191. That's it. . "notice the period) :applause:

[The Bottom Line]

Did not.
As with some other subjects I do see how this could have been inferred when it's 3rd or 4th hand information. This stuff happens to me as well..

The CCC did let their feelings be known that they would like to continue as the Grant Sponsor for that section of trail if for nothing other than sentimental reasons - after all it was THE first trail ever laid out by the CCC (back in '67/'68) and we maintained it purely on a volunteer basis for decades prior to the current maintenance program. So, sure, we did want that trail. No threats of quitting were made over the issue though. When the trail was recently given to the USFS we made our concerns known again.

I let it be known (to both the DNR and atv leadership) at the time this debate was proceeding; that this was an IDEAL trail for our two groups to finally WORK TOGETHER ON.

To my knowledge, this proposal NEVER went beyond what I was suggesting at that time...a time when we then witnessed the atving public not so much as "blink an eye" when it was revealed that their leadership's response to this suggestion was to work with motorcyclists on a "social level only".(this suggestion and the response to it was one of the reasons I got kicked off the forums).

As I've claimed before.....these "Gods" that nobody has had the kahunas to question all these years....have been driving these two groups away from each other for years. One guy never daring to upset the more radical members of his long-time membership....the other not willing to bring any idea forward that wasn't his own and who is now proving such by trying to draft legislative orv policy behind everyone's back.